The perils of buying a listed property

[LucyLokitt1750]

Hi Everyone,

Me and the Mr are in the process of buying a grade II listed property in Staffordshire. We fell in love with it on the first viewing and, despite our best efforts to remain level-headed, we still love it. We've had a full building survey done and are delighted to find that there were no lurking nasty surprises -just a bit of TLC needed really.

However, we've hit a snag where the mortgage is concerned. Our high street lender requested a Damp and Timber Report, which our surveyor (a specialist in listed and period properties) happily drew up for them. There is no damp, but a large beam in the attic space has evidence of insect attack (possibly very old), and he has recommended as a precautionary measure that we have it treated in the next two years and look at having the beam strengthened. Now nearly two weeks after all this was submitted to the lender's surveyor, we're still waiting for a reply. We have been told that the surveyor would want for us to have the work done prior to completion -something that we are certain would lose us the sale of our house and possibly the house we are trying to buy due to the delay in obtaining LBC. Quite apart from the fact that seeking to do work on a house you don't own seems bonkers to us. In the same breath, the surveyor has valued it up from the purchase price, and our mortgage advisor is now seeking clarification on whether the work needs doing at all -if it's worth what it is in the condition that it's in, surely the work doesn't need doing? Or are we missing the point here?

As you can probably tell, we're new to this. Our current house ticked all the lenders' boxes nice and easily when we purchased it 6 years ago. 3 months in we're completely frazzled but are now looking at a back up, and I wondered if any of you might be able to advise on mortgage lenders that will deal with listed properties (not just say they do and then throw lots of obstacles in the way)?

Many thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[Me!]

I guess it probably depends on how large a mortgage you require in relation to its percentage of the property value, however my last two mortgages have been from the Nationwide building society who seemed not to worry about the standard sorts of problems that occur in old buildings. They were a few years ago now though, so things may have changed.

 

[Feltwell]

A bit late now I know - unless you move to a new lender - but a top tip I was given for buying an old house, which worked very well for us, is to get the cheapest possible valuation only survey done by the mortgage company - and if you want a full structural survey, get it done separately and addressed only to you, don't involve the lender at all.

Mortgage companies seem to work on a tick box system - show them as little detail on an old house as you can, they just don't understand them. For example, here the structural survey revealed "signs of infestation" - when I spoke to the surveyor he was more than happy to confirm verbally only that it was just old signs of furniture beetle - try and find an old house that hasn't had that at some point! If the mortgage company had seen it they may have insisted on having the house sprayed, which would be totally unnecessary.

Our valuation survey was done from the roadside - they didn't even come into the house - now I wouldn't be surprised if they use Google Streetview. Easy money :roll:

I'm surprised your mortgage company wants work done prior to completion though. I thought they usually just put a retention on - so they keep back £x of the mortgage until you've had the work done, the idea being they release the funds for you to pay for the work once it's completed, and in the meantime you have to find some extra short term to tide you over to enable you to complete.

 

[Clockmaster]

I can't give you advice on your actual situation, but I know where you are with it. We are currently in a situation not a light year away from yours. We put an offer in (a low one to cover refurb costs) on an old, circa 1800 two bed cottage not far from where we live now. There was an outside crack which seemed to start from the gable end of the upper wall, following both upstairs and below windows. Looking at it countless times, sometimes with the extra eyes of my son-in-law who is a general builder, it looked like the very-nearby leylandii conifers, 18 of them running the length of the rear garden, coupled with 10 feet high evergreen laurel hedging inches away from the said corner of the property were drying out the surrounding ground, shrinking, taking the wall down a fraction with it. The laurel hedge is massive, and looking at the trunk at ground level, they must be the best part of half a century old, with the nearest trunk a couple of inches away from the lower wall. My present insurer would not touch it so a specialist insurer was called. To have the crack looked at by a professional, then possibly be told by the insurer that it was not for them after all the faffing around, made us pull out of the purchase. I thought I could handle the crack if it was just the trees, as I have looked at the new underpinning method using injected resin. The final straw was that my solicitors searches revealed possible underground salt mining's from previous centuries, within 50 metres of the cottage. Hence me finding out about insurance, so the crack could be just the greenery, or something underground. I can't take the chance.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

There is no damp, but a large beam in the attic space has evidence of insect attack (possibly very old), and he has recommended as a precautionary measure that we have it treated in the next two years and look at having the beam strengthened. Now nearly two weeks after all this was submitted to the lender's surveyor, we're still waiting for a reply. We have been told that the surveyor would want for us to have the work done prior to completion -something that we are certain would lose us the sale of our house and possibly the house we are trying to buy due to the delay in obtaining LBC.

If we're talking about treating one beam for a past insect infestation and possibly doing some minor work to strengthen it, then unless you are buying a mediaeval hall house with an astonishingly decorative roof, then I'd say that doesn't need LBC - it's a repair, not an alteration.

 

[LucyLokitt1750]

Hi all,

Very many thanks for all your help. As it happens, we've just received word that the lender's surveyor has removed any 'conditions' and that we should receive a formal mortgage offer this week (fingers crossed). I have Nationwide up my sleeve in case anything else creeps into their bloomin' report, though (thank you "Me!"). I don't think it helps that our adviser is newly qualified -we seem to be getting a lot of mixed messages and delays. Or perhaps it's us... :roll:

If we're talking about treating one beam for a past insect infestation and possibly doing some minor work to strengthen it, then unless you are buying a mediaeval hall house with an astonishingly decorative roof, then I'd say that doesn't need LBC - it's a repair, not an alteration.

Well, it definitely isn't that exciting! However, the surveyor has recommended that a large chunk of the beam needs replacing -is this classed as repair/or "like-for-like" and therefore exempt, or do you think we'll need LBC for it? We'd just assumed it would, so I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

So things are looking up, but our concern now is the rebuild cost for insurance purposes. I see elsewhere on the forum that folks have had good service from NFU. We insure our current, very standard Victorian terrace house with Adrian Flux, as it's in a high flood risk area and no one else would touch us. When I approached them for a rough quote for the new house (which is in a completely different area), they suggested £500-£600. However, this was based on a rebuild cost to match the price we're paying for it (£267, 500), so I know this isn't right. But the question is, how do you find out what the rebuild cost is? Would the mortgage valuation specify? I don't want to run the risk of being under-insured.

 

[LucyLokitt1750]

I thought it might help to explain that the house we're buying is a brick construction (dated 1707), built upon a stone foundation layer. Roof is plain clay tiles. So as you can see, pretty tame stuff as far as some listed buildings are concerned!

 

[steveb]

re insurance, I switched from Adrian Flux to NFU last year - our current place is on a flood plain and in our case Adrian Flux's underwriter was clearly looking to reduce their flood risk as the premium quadrupled from about £600 to £2400. NFU came in at £360, which I had to make sure was annual and not monthly and with much more reasonable terms. I did whack the excesses up to I think £1000 for both buildings and contents though, but since I can make 2 claims and still be quids in I am a happy man - and the amount of time that NFU spent on the phone, understanding the property and looking at his own models for flooding etc gave me some confidence. He went as far as removing some stupid stuff from the policy as he played the games that I would play if I had access to the system. Two examples, we have an alarm fitted - however the NFU man checked and determined that the premium would be the same with or without the alarm - so better to take the policy without otherwise they put in a stipulation that you must set it when you go to bed or leave the property or you void certain parts of the cover. He still recommends we set the alarm, but it won't affect a claim if we don't . And also we have non-standard locks on our windows (not "key operated" ones). Again he worked through the options and it made no difference if we declared key operated or non-standard, so we're insured without having to worry if our locks meet the insurers requirements on any given day. And he ran through these permutations off his own back when I was off the phone - service that couldn't be faulted.

I can't remember what we we for rebuild costs - I think we have a number somewhere from when we bought the place that has been increased each year by odd amounts - however it's worth asking the insurer. I am pretty sure that the RICS ? rebuild calculator is no real use for non-standard buildings

-Steve

 

[Matt Green]

and he has recommended as a precautionary measure that we have it treated in the next two years

There has to be evidence of insects present to warrant treatment. The 1981 Control of Pesticides Act is reasonably clear about that.

 

[Flyfisher]

That’s interesting. I knew that was the recommended approach but didn’t recognise it was enshrined in law. I wonder how many surveyors and pest control companies claim that the holes in timber is sufficient evidence for spraying poisons everywhere?

I’ve read about looking for ‘frass’ as evidence of active infestations and also pasting tissue paper over the holes in suspect beams to see if the little beggars chomp their way through, but are there any other methods we can use to detect active infestations?

 

[Clockmaster]

Are there any other methods we can use to detect active infestations?

You won't find them active at this time of year. Have to wait until next year now.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

If we're talking about treating one beam for a past insect infestation and possibly doing some minor work to strengthen it, then unless you are buying a mediaeval hall house with an astonishingly decorative roof, then I'd say that doesn't need LBC - it's a repair, not an alteration.

Well, it definitely isn't that exciting! However, the surveyor has recommended that a large chunk of the beam needs replacing -is this classed as repair/or "like-for-like" and therefore exempt, or do you think we'll need LBC for it? We'd just assumed it would, so I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

I can't speak for your conservation officer, and obviously I've not seen the beam, but I think it would be a needless waste of my publicly-funded time to go through determining a full LBC application. An exchange of emails and a note on the file should suffice.

 

[Flyfisher]

Are there any other methods we can use to detect active infestations?

You won't find them active at this time of year. Have to wait until next year now.

Fair enough, which would suggest that to comply with the strict legalities that Matt Green (our resident entomological expert) has pointed out, such spraying should only be carried out at certain times of the year, after infestation is proven.

 

[Pennyviz]

If we're talking about treating one beam for a past insect infestation and possibly doing some minor work to strengthen it, then unless you are buying a mediaeval hall house with an astonishingly decorative roof, then I'd say that doesn't need LBC - it's a repair, not an alteration.

Well, it definitely isn't that exciting! However, the surveyor has recommended that a large chunk of the beam needs replacing -is this classed as repair/or "like-for-like" and therefore exempt, or do you think we'll need LBC for it? We'd just assumed it would, so I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

I can't speak for your conservation officer, and obviously I've not seen the beam, but I think it would be a needless waste of my publicly-funded time to go through determining a full LBC application. An exchange of emails and a note on the file should suffice.

Both ends of a boxed in beam here (17thC addition to medieval hall house) needed replacing with steel supports, counted as repair, as above photographs of before and after and brief visit by CO.

More of problem to find competant and willing builder.

Penny

 

[Bogart]

re insurance, I switched from Adrian Flux to NFU last year - our current place is on a flood plain and in our case Adrian Flux's underwriter was clearly looking to reduce their flood risk as the premium quadrupled from about £600 to £2400. NFU came in at £360, which I had to make sure was annual and not monthly and with much more reasonable terms. I did whack the excesses up to I think £1000 for both buildings and contents though, but since I can make 2 claims and still be quids in I am a happy man - and the amount of time that NFU spent on the phone, understanding the property and looking at his own models for flooding etc gave me some confidence. He went as far as removing some stupid stuff from the policy as he played the games that I would play if I had access to the system. Two examples, we have an alarm fitted - however the NFU man checked and determined that the premium would be the same with or without the alarm - so better to take the policy without otherwise they put in a stipulation that you must set it when you go to bed or leave the property or you void certain parts of the cover. He still recommends we set the alarm, but it won't affect a claim if we don't . And also we have non-standard locks on our windows (not "key operated" ones). Again he worked through the options and it made no difference if we declared key operated or non-standard, so we're insured without having to worry if our locks meet the insurers requirements on any given day. And he ran through these permutations off his own back when I was off the phone - service that couldn't be faulted.

I can't remember what we we for rebuild costs - I think we have a number somewhere from when we bought the place that has been increased each year by odd amounts - however it's worth asking the insurer. I am pretty sure that the RICS ? rebuild calculator is no real use for non-standard buildings

-Steve

£360 quote from NFU what are you living in a one bed tent! Hope the alarm and window lock agreement is in writing

 

[LucyLokitt1750]

Update: the mortgage offer is now in and there were no conditions set. Phew.

I will definitely be contacting NFU for a quote and will ask them their thoughts on the rebuild cost.

Thank you all for your help so far -I've made contact with the Conservation Officer in our area so will be looking to have a chat with them soon about the beam work. I'm amazed by what can be classified as 'repair' work. Among the other bits and pieces that need sorting fairly quickly are the repair of a small window and the replacement of two others. There are other exciting projects I'd eventually like to get my teeth into though, including the restoration of the six panel Georgian front door. Unbeknownst to us on visits to the house the door had been panelled in, but our surveyor spotted it and suggested that we consider restoration. So I imagine I shall be on here with many questions about that in due course!

There seem to be a lot of myths around concerning listed buildings -enough to make you think twice, if not put you off completely- and yet I'm finding all the time that it's really not as bad as the doom-mongers would have you believe. But then I suppose we've been lucky finding a relatively straight forward house with only a few issues to solve. Had it been otherwise, we were stealing ourselves to pull out of the purchase. Like Clockmaster, we'd agree that there's a limit. For us, our salaries just don't stretch far enough to be doing major work without first having to save up.

 

[Pennyviz]

Check out LV too, someone on here recommended them at some point.

Penny

 

[ElectronicFur]

LV wouldn't insure our house, and NFU ended up dearer than Aviva. So worth getting a few quotes.

We only did the cheap valuation survey done by the mortgage company, as we have little faith in surveyors from past experience. But even that cheap survey gave us a rebuild value for the insurance.

 

[Me!]

LV wouldn't insure our house

LV don't like timber frame or thatch, but as long as you are mainly built of brick, stone, flint, tile, slate etc. then they seem to be a very good deal.

 

[ElectronicFur]

LV have a restriction on the number of rooms they will insure as well, which was our problem. But on a price comparison website Aviva came up cheaper anyway in our case, and when I phoned up to get a quote they were fine with it being a listed building.