The new project

[overlander matt]

At very long last we have the keys to our new house. A listed property (grade 2) is a new one for us and we have much to learn...

While we wait for the conservation officer and local planning department to review our pre-app submission for an extension and internal works, we have been investigating what is behind the wallpaper and fitted furniture...

The photos below show the main bedroom before and after removal of the fitted units and wallpaper. I would be interested to hear any suggestions for what we do on the plastering front - the majority of the existing plaster is lime but there are a few gypsum repairs. The lime seems reasonably good - it's not falling off albeit there are a few cracks on the walls. The lathe and plaster ceiling has quite a few cracks and the plaster cornicing has seen better days in places where the internal roof gulley has leaked in the room above...

Ideally, I would like to insulate the walls to make this a warmer room - three walls are external facing and it's pretty cold. A nice smooth coat of plaster to paint with a traditional finish would be our aim. This is the main bedroom in the house and we are keen to return some original glory to this room. Previously, I must admit that ceilings would probably have been boarded over and skimmed, likewise the walls... What should the approach be in this case?

I'm not surprised there was no fireplace fitted but there are two fireplaces in a corner of an outbuilding that I will photograph and ask about shortly. They're both pretty rusty but hopefully salvageable. Whether one came from this room, we will hopefully find out!

Any advice would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Matt

 

[Abi Cott]

That looks like a lovely project


Personally I would repair in lime, upgrade the radiator to something capable of heating that volume of air, get the shutters working as they are in effect your double glazing and will significantly warm the room, and add some insulation at the base of the windows contained in handy window seats, as the walls are thinner at that point and will be providing a cold spot for condensation.

 

[overlander matt]

Hi Abi,

Thanks for your comments. We will indeed be busy!

As a lime novice, I'm interested to know more about what we can do with lime around the house given most rooms have either been repaired with gypsum or reskimmed completely with gypsum plaster. Even where there is lime, I would imagine the breathability has been lost completely given the paint and paste put on these walls over the years. What would you do under such circumstances? This room is one of the more significant Georgian rooms in the house and could merit more significant investment!

Thanks,

Matt

 

[Abi Cott]

I'm a lime novice too, but I've been doing lots and lots of research. I'm in a yorkstone building with single glazed sliding sash. If it was hard red brick I would consider gypsum, but stone or soft reds and I think lime plaster is your best bet.

If you get lime plaster damp it kinda shrugs it off and asks "What's next" get gypsum damp and you have mush on your hands, so longevity wise on a porous structure, lime wins hands down.

Upstairs I'm removing the gypsum patching and making my stone walls all lime. On internal 'stud' walls I'm happy to skim in gypsum to save costs.

The trickiest areas are where bitumen wallpaper has been over skimmed with gypsum. That definitely ain't gonna breathe, but it is just patching that I've come across so far.

I have a much smaller house, but this is probably the most challenging wall so far. The pink areas are gypsum over wall paper, the cream is lime plaster, and obviously the stone is stone. I've had structural work done, plus the area under the window was just covered in pine cladding.

 

[Abi Cott]

Interestingly it took one working day to make this

Look like this

 

[overlander matt]

That looks like very satisfying progress for a day's work! It sounds like you are taking a pragmatic approach with lime on the inside of the external walls and gypsum on the internal walls - does this also include the ceilings? That is probably how I see this house going although there might be more lime in the significant Georgian rooms.

I am going to meet up with a plasterer soon to discuss the best options for various rooms. I am surprised there is as much lime plaster as there is here and not so much has been repaired with gypsum. That said, pretty much all the lathe and plaster ceilings I have stripped wallpaper off are badly cracked and may need to be boarded. One for the plasterer to advise on.

Good luck with your project Abi.

Matt

 

[Abi Cott]

I should say it wasn't me that did the labour, it was a couple of strapping young apprentices.

When it comes to ceilings I'm cautious about overboarding. I'm in a three storey house. On each floor I have areas that are over boarded and areas that aren't.

I won't be removing any of the over boarding currently in situ. I might add additional over boarding on the ground and first floor. However on the top floor I will use a textured anaglypta wallpaper on the rather cracked ceilings instead of adding plasterboard.

The advantage of over boarding is that it is removable by someone in the future. However it's in the same mush category so on the top floor I will keep as much lime as I can. I could go to the expense of removing the plasterboard and reconstructing the lath and plaster ceilings on the top floor, but I've seen them up close and personal when I hand scraped half a tonne of rubble off them in the loft. They aren't great. So I'm going to wait for a leak and if it happens let the insurance company pay.

I should add that I have no coving which makes it a rather simpler question

 

[overlander matt]

I had a plasterer call round today and went room to room to look at our requirements and made suggestions along the way. He seemed to like the idea of overboarding damaged ceilings and took the view the conservation officer should dictate whether lime or gypsum was used on certain walls. The plaster is generally sound and a mixture of original lime with gypsum repairs and additions. Given the lack of damp he suggested using gypsum plaster where there is already gypsum and no obvious problems. It will be interesting to get the conservation officer's take next week.

Out of interest, Abicott, is your house listed? I'm also looking at the bathroom and wondering about the best way of removing the tiles that cover every wall and floor. I tried a test area and found the plaster is just coming off with the tiles. I'm not sure how the conservation officer will view a totally stripped bathroom shoudl I continue...

I hope your project is coming along!

Matt

 

[Abi Cott]

I'm grade II

I'm choosing my plastering options because I think despite the additional expense I will have a more robust house at the end. My Conservation Officer wasn't too bothered. However with a stone or soft red construction my research says lime makes sense on external walls. In my case I'm also intending to use it on stone built party walls, but you might not have any of those.

Refitting a bathroom in a space that currently contains a bathroom didn't require any listed building consent. In that room I used gypsum plaster because there is no point in paying for lime plaster and then covering it in non breathable tiles and anti mould vinyl paint.

If you are moving the bathroom, it requires listed building consent, but if it's still in the same room it doesn't as far as I can work out, and there is bugger all point in lime plastering then covering it in tiles.

 

[Abi Cott]

Ooh that's my first bad word.

 

[paulc]

Refitting a bathroom in a space that currently contains a bathroom didn't require any listed building consent. In that room I used gypsum plaster because there is no point in paying for lime plaster and then covering it in non breathable tiles and anti mould vinyl paint.

I'm quite taken with the idea of Tadelakt in my bathroom. I'll certainly be avoiding plasterboard & gypsum plaster in there, and really don't want to use tiles or wall boards.

 

[george2019]

Refitting a bathroom in a space that currently contains a bathroom didn't require any listed building consent. In that room I used gypsum plaster because there is no point in paying for lime plaster and then covering it in non breathable tiles and anti mould vinyl paint.

I'm quite taken with the idea of Tadelakt in my bathroom. I'll certainly be avoiding plasterboard & gypsum plaster in there, and really don't want to use tiles or wall boards.

Who supplies Tadelakt in the UK? Looks tricky to DIY!

 

[steveb]

re Tadelakt in the UK, depends where you are. Mike Wye provide materials and run courses:

https://www.mikewye.co.uk/product/tadelakt-plaster-course/

 

[paulc]

Who supplies Tadelakt in the UK? Looks tricky to DIY!

A bit more time consuming than regular lime plastering. One useful document that I've come across is this one: Guia-de-Tadelakt-Inglés.pdf

 

[overlander matt]

The long awaited visit from the conservation officer took place this week and I think it was a very positive experience given all there was to discuss. The lime plaster is deemed to be in fundamentally good condition with only a couple of walls showing significant cracks. I am being encouraged to maintain the lime on the external walls (I forgot to ask about the internal walls and ceilings) for breathability reasons. I would question whether the wall can still breath given the paint and wall paper paste that has covered it over the years... So I suppose my question is can I do a single finish coat of lime plaster on the old plaster (where is in good condition) which has been painted and/or wallpapered? What is the most suitable product to use?

Some of the ceilings have cornicing but have lots of cracks in the flat lath and plaster sections. What is the suggested means of repairing/replastering these? A plasterer I had come to look at the job ahead of the conservation officer thought overboarding would be the best option but I am a bit worried some of the cornice detail would be lost.

Breathable wall insulation products did not seem very popular when I suggested these for insulating some external facing walls. I am pretty concerned about how cold the house will be in winter and wonder what options I have now the wall insulation has been ruled out.

Thanks in advance.

Matt

 

[a twig]

Depending on the size of the cracks in the ceilings, lime based fillers are available, Ty Mawr offer one I think, that would be the easiest.

Realistically you would want to strip off paint and paper before trying to over plaster, although there is a surface prep you can paint on to help adhesion in this situation. The name escapes me at the moment but it has been used.plenty on this forum, ain't cheap though.

In my experience skimming on dodgy surfaces has been more successful with hydraulic lime than fat lime, but my use of NHL internally is apparently controversial...

Anyhoo, hope that helps?

 

[overlander matt]

Thanks Twig - that is a help.

I'm not familiar with any controversy caused with your use of lime. I shall investigate further...

Sounds like a few calls to some suppliers will be necessary. It is fair to say our walls fall into the dodgy surface category. Whether they can still 'breathe' or not given the paint and wallpaper paste of years gone by who can say? What I do know is the surfaces are not terribly smooth, cracked in places and allegedly cannot be removed according to the CO. Therefore I need to find the most suitable solution to discuss with my plasterer.

Unfortunately at the start of a large project there are all manner of different things to be investigated! Paint stripping is next on the list...

Matt

 

[george2019]

The long awaited visit from the conservation officer took place this week and I think it was a very positive experience given all there was to discuss. The lime plaster is deemed to be in fundamentally good condition with only a couple of walls showing significant cracks. I am being encouraged to maintain the lime on the external walls (I forgot to ask about the internal walls and ceilings) for breathability reasons. I would question whether the wall can still breath given the paint and wall paper paste that has covered it over the years... So I suppose my question is can I do a single finish coat of lime plaster on the old plaster (where is in good condition) which has been painted and/or wallpapered? What is the most suitable product to use?

Some of the ceilings have cornicing but have lots of cracks in the flat lath and plaster sections. What is the suggested means of repairing/replastering these? A plasterer I had come to look at the job ahead of the conservation officer thought overboarding would be the best option but I am a bit worried some of the cornice detail would be lost.

Breathable wall insulation products did not seem very popular when I suggested these for insulating some external facing walls. I am pretty concerned about how cold the house will be in winter and wonder what options I have now the wall insulation has been ruled out.

Thanks in advance.

Matt

Air-tightness and good heating is more important that insulation. Unfortunately I think it's a compromise for living in older houses that in winter you can't go round in a t-shirt... even though I'm adding insulation I don't expect to use more than 2 rooms in winter time.

 

[overlander matt]

I've now signed up for a lime plastering course so hopefully that will be the source of some useful information. It's interesting to hear the range of approaches that I have heard from a few plasterers now.

The room in the photos at the start of this post is fairly typical of the Georgian rooms in the house. On the whole, the plaster is pretty solid with only the odd crack here or there. In a few places, there has been a light repair skim with gypsum which looks like it will come off without too much drama. The conservation officer wants all repairs to be carried out with lime so it looks like that is the way I will go. I spoke with someone at Mike Wye about my situation who recommended a DG27 primer followed by one or two coats of fine heritage plaster. He did caution against not removing the old plaster back to brickwork but I don't feel it is practical to even consider this at this point in time. Does the primer and finishing plaster work well? In terms of surface preparation, I have a heavy duty scraper to remove as much old paint as possible, in places the paint comes off fairly easily but in others there is no shifting it. Anyone have any idea how forgiving the DG27 is?

Ceilings are less obvious to me... Every one of them is cracked and every plasterer has suggested overboarding with 9mm plasterboard. In my limited experience there is only one that looks really bad and has been skimmed with gypsum in an attempt to hold it together (every plasterer has suggested removing that one)…

Thanks again for any suggestions.

Matt

 

[overlander matt]

We started plastering this week with mixed results... Fundamentally the walls in the house are solid and we will skim them with Mike Wye's Heritage plaster. Walls were prepared by removing any gypsum patches and priming with DG27. My plasterer has not used this product before and is having trouble knowing when to trowel it to get a good finish. It seems very wet and the DG27 is limiting any suction from the wall. How have others fared with this product? How long does it take to go off in this situation? I noticed in an earlier reply that lime putty might not be as good as NHL for this type of application.

Having attended one of Mike Wye's training days recently, I have a basic idea how this plaster should finish - it's not super smooth and the so-called 'Regency' product is recommended for a finer, gypsum-like finish. This might well be appropriate for some rooms in the house but I would be keen to know whether the Heritage paints up ok. At the moment our plasterer is getting a bit frustrated by it...


Thanks in advance for any guidance.

Matt