Straightening speed fit pipe

[Flyfisher]

I might be using the wrong terminology but these are the valves I'm referring to:

The flexitap tail valves are really just in case a tap needs changing and if they fail I'll have a ball valve somewhere nearby and if that fails I'll just work my way back to the main stopcock.

What's your view on the relative merits of ball and gate valves? My understanding is that ball valves are more reliable as they tend to 'wipe clean' during operation whereas a gate valve can accumulate corrosion, which can make it difficult to fully close, which makes it more likely to be over-tightened and thus break.

 

[robgil]

I suppose it depends on the circumstances, neither valve is any good for flow regulation and are really designed to give all or nothing, as for which would be best in a domestic plumbing situation i would say a ball valve might be better, gate valves are really only for low pressure systems. Providing you have a decent water softener and every now and then open and close the valve to keep it working it should last, the valve you are showing in the photo is a lever ball valve, your average domestic isolating valve will look like this,

this might provide some interesting reading, well , if valves are your thing.

http://www.arrowvalves.co.uk/waterregulations/waterrregstutorial9-isolatingvalves.doc

 

[Flyfisher]

'All or nothing' control is fine for me as I'm not using them for any form of flow control, just on or off.

Thanks for the document link - rather disturbingly, I found it quite interesting.
Now I'll be even more popular at dinner parties.

 

[LadyArowana]

I might be using the wrong terminology but these are the valves I'm referring to:

Now you are just confusing me chaps. This one has a yellow handle and I remember being told "the gas is the one with the yellow handle". I was convinced that I would forget and have a huge panic if I ever needed to shut things off during an emergency so I drew myself a diagram and taped it to the back of the door to the valves. It does seem to be a piece of information that has been hard wired to my brain though, was my builder just having a little jokette and there isn't actually any convention as to how water/ gas pipes are identified?

 

[Pford75]

Sorry for diverting the thread a little, but this plumbing expertise is too good to pass up.

We are considering fitting a Magnaclean unit (http://www.adeysolutions.co.uk). They claim to remove the 'sludge' which often results from having old cast iron radiators (so perhaps relevant to many PPUK'ers). It also provides a useful chemical dosing point (avoiding draining the entire system)

Anyone here got one?

 

[Penners]

I might be using the wrong terminology but these are the valves I'm referring to:

Those are called, I believe, "service valves". The one pictured by robgil is exactly the same, except that you use a screwdriver to turn it instead of a lever. This can be handy if you have inquisitive children in the house.

But I absolutely agree with you, FF. I'm always intensely annoyed when I find that a plumber has fitted some appliance - a toilet, bath tap or whatever - without including a service valve in the circuit. They make life so much easier, for very little additional expenditure.

 

[Lime]

Sorry for diverting the thread a little, but this plumbing expertise is too good to pass up.

We are considering fitting a Magnaclean unit (http://www.adeysolutions.co.uk). They claim to remove the 'sludge' which often results from having old cast iron radiators (so perhaps relevant to many PPUK'ers). It also provides a useful chemical dosing point (avoiding draining the entire system)

Anyone here got one?

The sludge in most radiators is formed within the radiator itself and drops directly to the bottom.
Any sort of filtering in the pipework will not catch any of it.

Has anyone ever tried to wash out an old radiator?
The sludge is almost impossible to remove without a physical means of disturbing it.

Everyone would be far better off by placing chemicals in the water of the system to prevent corrosion happening from the start.

Fernox liquid used to be my preferred choice. (I don't have central heating now)
Be generous with it, don't skimp.
http://www.fernox.com/the+company

 

[Flyfisher]

I might be using the wrong terminology but these are the valves I'm referring to:

Now you are just confusing me chaps. This one has a yellow handle and I remember being told "the gas is the one with the yellow handle". I was convinced that I would forget and have a huge panic if I ever needed to shut things off during an emergency so I drew myself a diagram and taped it to the back of the door to the valves. It does seem to be a piece of information that has been hard wired to my brain though, was my builder just having a little jokette and there isn't actually any convention as to how water/ gas pipes are identified?

Good point Milady. That photo was the first example of the physical valve I could find. In practice, hot water is identified with red and cold water with blue. The actual valves I've used have black handles but came with red and blue bands that could be slipped over the handle. However, I have one of those label-printing machines (the modern equivalent of those old Dymo label printers) and I also add a label to each lever describing its specific use.

Penners raises an interesting point about lever-operated valves and inquisitive children, something I wasn't planning of thinking about for a few years yet, but the levers are easily detachable by removing the retaining nut (visible in the photo).

 

[LadyArowana]

Now you are just confusing me chaps. This one has a yellow handle and I remember being told "the gas is the one with the yellow handle". I was convinced that I would forget and have a huge panic if I ever needed to shut things off during an emergency so I drew myself a diagram and taped it to the back of the door to the valves. It does seem to be a piece of information that has been hard wired to my brain though, was my builder just having a little jokette and there isn't actually any convention as to how water/ gas pipes are identified?

Good point Milady. That photo was the first example of the physical valve I could find. In practice, hot water is identified with red and cold water with blue. The actual valves I've used have black handles but came with red and blue bands that could be slipped over the handle. However, I have one of those label-printing machines (the modern equivalent of those old Dymo label printers) and I also add a label to each lever describing its specific use.

He was telling the truth then :lol: They did like the odd joke now and again. When we finally got the new boiler hooked up they stood around the temporary taps in the kitchen and said "such a shame we don't have a red bucket". I asked why and they told me with much sucking of teeth that EU regulations manadated a temporary hot water tap could only be used with a red bucket and we only had the cold water blue versions on site so I would have to continue hand washing in cold water. I was about to get cross when the electrician started laughing and gave the game away. I did get them back though. They had almost finished the bathroom and I arrived in the morning and told them I had remembered something really important that needed to go in there, very gruff reply of "what would that be?" I then produced a yellow rubber duckie from my bag!

 

[robgil]

I might be using the wrong terminology but these are the valves I'm referring to:

Those are called, I believe, "service valves". The one pictured by robgil is exactly the same, except that you use a screwdriver to turn it instead of a lever. This can be handy if you have inquisitive children in the house.

But I absolutely agree with you, FF. I'm always intensely annoyed when I find that a plumber has fitted some appliance - a toilet, bath tap or whatever - without including a service valve in the circuit. They make life so much easier, for very little additional expenditure.

there are many different types of isolating valve for different applications , high pressure , low pressure , steam , gas etc etc., the valve i pictured above is an isolating valve , this is a service valve,

more or less the same thing except a service valve has a union fitting on one end and compression on the other. both are used for the same applications.

a lever ball valve can be used for some different applications but in domestic hot and cold water systems they can be used as isolating valves.

you can see some different types of valve here,

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/097.asp

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Worth noting the difference between the two forms of ball valve pictured and discussed: the 'isolating' valve with the lever handle is a full bore design, i.e. the flow path through the valve is the same diameter (nominaly) as the pipe (or tube, good grief this is getting complicated...) and thus it offers little resistance to flow. The 'service' valve, screwdriver operated, has a much smaller internal bore which will offer greater flow resistance. On mains pressure pipework it can also introduce flow noise.

For most applications the functional difference would be insignificant, but this forum is inhabited by those for whom technical details like this are important. Personally I tend to fit full-bore valves, especially on low pressure pipework and in CH systems. Also the valves seem more reliable than the screwdriver operated service valves - I've had a few of those leaking from the valve stem. As always you get what you pay for; I prefer branded fittings like Peglers.

With respect to the copper / plastic debate it's copper every time for me. Especially after I'd seen the damage caused when mice ate through some plastic CH pipe in a friend's house. Plus it's easier to get a neater job, the joints are smaller, and it really is 'fit-and-forget'. The thing that worries me a bit about the plastic systems is the way the manufacturers are constantly updating and 'improving' their components. I'd prefer them to have perfected the technology before releasing it onto the market - and into people's homes.

Robgil - re: those expensive offcuts: all my offcuts and trimmings go into a box. Once full it's off to the scrapyard to weigh it in. I'm always amazed at the what you can get for even quite small amounts of scrap copper, brass etc.

 

[robgil]

i know , ive got a shed full of it. a lot of it has customers knackered service and isolation valves still attached. no drain off cocks though. :wink:

 

[robgil]

ive just had a read through the John Guest (i know ,ive got a cold and im bored) and i didnt know you could bend their rigid pipe with a pipe bender or spring?
anyhow , they say this about rodent attack,

Protection against rodents

When used in locations that are vulnerable to rodent attack, all plastic pipes and fittings should be adequately protected within sealed ducts.

Speedfit products, along with other materials such as electrical cables may be damaged if rodents are present. If vermin infestation is suspected then a rodent exterminator should take appropriate action.

not very helpful at all if everywhere is suspect to rodent attack like in my old tea bag of a house.i think putting some poison down close to the pipework might help deter rodents.
interesting read though.


http://www.speedfit.co.uk/Home/Products/Plumbing-Fittings/10mm,-15mm,-22mm---28mm-Sizes/REDUCER.aspx

you have to click on installation advice.

 

[Feltwell]

Worth noting the difference between the two forms of ball valve pictured and discussed: the 'isolating' valve with the lever handle is a full bore design, i.e. the flow path through the valve is the same diameter (nominaly) as the pipe (or tube, good grief this is getting complicated...) and thus it offers little resistance to flow. The 'service' valve, screwdriver operated, has a much smaller internal bore which will offer greater flow resistance. On mains pressure pipework it can also introduce flow noise.

You can get the full bore type without the handle as well - so screwdriver operated - which is what I tend to use. Robgil, I agree on the drain-off cocks, but why do mine always seem to seize? The cover comes off no problem with small spanner, but leaves the spindle and seal behind. A pair of long nose pliers usually shifts it but then it pi$$es water everywhere whilst you shove the spindle back in to direct the flow out through the drain hole where it was supposed to go in the first place.

 

[robgil]

are you removing the gland before you solder them in? you could try using some silicone grease when you assemble them . if you get a funny one like this it might be best to replace it. you have to open and shut valves and cocks etc around once a year or so to help keep them working properly.
flushing out the heating system once in a while (use cleaning agent, drain then use inhibitor when filling back up) and using a decent water softener/de scaler helps.

 

[Onetap]

We are considering fitting a Magnaclean unit (http://www.adeysolutions.co.uk). They claim to remove the 'sludge' which often results from having old cast iron radiators (so perhaps relevant to many PPUK'ers). It also provides a useful chemical dosing point (avoiding draining the entire system)

I have no experience of these, but would suggest you have a search on a plumbing forum (e.g.,http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1350002#1350002) for the various brand names.
There have been some adverse opinions about the quality of the Magnaclean unit and the seals on the lid. Magnaclean have brought out a Twin-tech unit which may be better. Spirovent, Fernox Boiler-buddy, Sentinel Magnetite seem to be similar ideas.

I have used a powereflushing macine with a magnetic filter attachment (a magnetic bar in a transparent housing) and was unimpressed. It seemed to be intended to impress the homeowner with the black gunge that attached itself to the shiney magnet. There was no fast way of cleaning it, repeated cleaning did not reduce the amount of gunge collected and only a small quantity could be removed each time. Presumably most of the particles were passing straight through the device and back into the system. A filter or strainer may have trapped more of them.

The black gunge is magnetite sludge and it is the products of the corrosion of the insides of the steel radiators. Some of the particles are very small and will be entrained in the water flow produced by a CH pump and move around the system. They can accumulate in areas of slow flow and can block radiators or boiler heat exchanger, especially on modern high efficieny boilers or combis with plate heat exchangers (narrow water ways). You will not get any significant amounts of magnetite sludge unless there is a problem with the system. Regular power flushing should not be necessary. Power flushing will not shift heavy deposits of magnetite.

 

[Onetap]

The cover comes off no problem with small spanner, but leaves the spindle and seal behind. A pair of long nose pliers usually shifts it but then it pi$$es water everywhere whilst you shove the spindle back in to direct the flow out through the drain hole where it was supposed to go in the first place.

You could also fit a full-bore ball valve on the main drain points, with the outlet capped. They are useful for attaching hoses, refilling and flushing.

The butterfly handled ball valves are a good alternative to the levers or the screwdriver slot types.