Stll solving the which windows puzzle. flat iron?

[robgil]

Does anybody have any experience with flat iron windows? Cost being a good place to start? We have been considering Oak windows but i really like the look of flat iron with leaded lights.

What do you think guys , would these look out of place on a wee cottage?

 

[R King]

We have flat iron windows in our cottage. They are originals and I think they look lovely.

I will post some pictures tomorrow so that you can see what they look like.

 

[middi]

Leaded lights in wrought iron casements inserted into stone or oak mullioned frames look extremely nice.

Exept:- the above were never, ever, used in cottages more than 150 years old ( or so).
These were the privelege of stately homes churches and houses of rich land owners. ( cost !!)
Therefore not really authentic in older cottages.

Having said that, as wealth started to filter through society in the mid 19thC or so, these windows were fitted to older cottages.

Also, rich land owners " gate house" cottages were fitted with OTT windows to show off their wealth.

The average 3/400 year old cottage had hardly any windows, usually just simple mullions, hessian curtans with internal shutters

It is my opinion that these older cottages look much better with simple casement windows as opposed to protraying "grandeur" where does not belong

Middi

 

[Penners]

As Middi says, a cottage of the age of yours would not have had windows originally. But given that these are now regarded as something of a necessity, then I, too, like the look of simple oak frame with leaded light membranes (but I much prefer rectangular to diamond leading). However, I think the first of your photos would be much more sympathetic to your house than the second one (which is far too grand - no offence intended!).

Here's a window that I made as a like-for-like repair to our Oxfordshire house: I reused the membranes and steel casement from the old one.

 

[robgil]

They look lovely Penners. I do see what you mean about them being grande , perhaps OTT for an old cottage like this however quite a lot of cottages in the village have them. I think i need a photo shop job done to try and get a image of what it might look like.
As far as authenticity goes nothing will really be authentic as the cottage may not have had any windows at all , as Middi points out. I was going to say ''there for anything goes'' but the stupid galvanized windows in there at the moment really do not go at all.
If we dont go for flat iron we could put leaded lights like those in your photo Penners into oak frames could we not?

This is what we have at the moment.

Not very nice at all.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Your top piccie windows would look lovely there Rob, what a transformation it would be. I agree with Mr P that rectangular leading is nicer than diamond shaped.

The cottage looks so sweet, even with its inappropriate windows, I can't imagine how lovely it would be with something more in keeping.

And what a lovely job Mr P made of his window in Oxfordshire- gorgeous! Copy that!

 

[robgil]

I was never a fan of diamond shaped leaded lights Joce although did i read that most were diamond shaped in the past? or have i go that totally wrong? Some nice rectangle crown or cylinder glass would be nice as Biff recommended but expensive.
Penners were the frames hard to put together in your window? Me being a pauper would save a heap of cash if i could do most of this my self. Also , how are the lights secured to the iron frame?

 

[Penners]

I do see what you mean about them being grande , perhaps OTT for an old cottage like this

I'm not sure that the simple type I showed above would be too grand - only the one that you showed in your lower photo, which is beautifully finished with very ornate furniture.

Ironically, the windows you already have are pretty close to what your CO would probably advocate, if it wasn't for the opening quarterlight in the centre sash. Three plain sashes, one fixed, two hinged (two sashes for smaller windows) with the emphasis on the vertical seems to be quite widely regarded as sympathetic to a building like yours.

 

[robgil]

The photo i posted was a reference not an exact 8indication of what I want. I couldn't find anything else on google in a hurry, i wish i had a house to put windows like that into.
Definitely a fixed pane in the middle and two opening ones either side , just a bit smaller than the ones in there now.

 

[Penners]

were the frames hard to put together in your window? Me being a pauper would save a heap of cash if i could do most of this my self. Also , how are the lights secured to the iron frame?

The oak frames were quite simple. Just square-section planed oak (sanded to take the sharpness off the arrises), morticed-and-tenoned together, and pegged from the inside. It's worth making your peg-holes blind, in order to reduce the risk of water penetrating the peg-hole or the end-grain of the peg from the outside. Remember to include the steel saddle-bars (horizontal bars just inside the leaded-lights that help to support the membrane) at the assembly stage.

I used a router to cut rebates for the leaded light and for the casement, squaring off the corners with a chisel.

The trickiest part was getting the hinge-hooks fitted accurately into the frame, so that the casement swung squarely into the rebate. This required a fair bit of careful hammering (after the hooks had been driven into pre-drilled interference holes), to tweak the axial, vertical and horizontal alignment.

The fixed leaded-light membrane was fitted into the wooden frame rebate with plenty of copper sprigs and putty. The membranes had copper wires soldered to the cames, and these were twisted firmly around the saddle-bars. The copper was a bit old and work-hardened so I had to do this very carefully.

As I said above, I re-used the steel casement from the old window, so I'm afraid I'm not sure how the leaded membrane was fixed into it. It appeared to be planted on the outside of the steel casement and flushed with putty on the outside, but I'm not certain whether it was perhaps soldered to the steel under the putty. It also had saddle bars. I presume you'd need to get the casement and the leaded lights made by a specialist - I'm sure he could tell you how the membrane is fitted to the casement (or do it for you).

I hope that's some help.

 

[middi]

For the record. Small diamond shaped glass of the tudor/ Elizabethan period preceeds square ( and gradually larger panes) as production costs and technique improved.

( small diamond shapes were necessary in order to recicle every scrap available. Hence not used in cottages)

Middi

 

[Penners]

Oh no! I was hoping Middi and Biff would be looking the other way when I explained my amateur window-making technique.

 

[robgil]

Thanks guys ,Penners that window is really lovely, if i could put one together like that i woulod be a happy man.
So it looks like a measure up and a quote for just the iron frames. Is there any kind of equation to figure out window size in proportion to a wall or house?

 

[middi]

Oh no! I was hoping Middi and Biff would be looking the other way when I explained my amateur window-making technique.

Actually your windows would have been state of the art Penners, compared to the earliest " cottage" frames. Some just had the corners halved and nailed.

Middi

 

[middi]

Thanks guys ,Penners that window is really lovely, if i could put one together like that i woulod be a happy man.
So it looks like a measure up and a quote for just the iron frames. Is there any kind of equation to figure out window size in proportion to a wall or house?

There isn't an equation Rob. Square ( ish) with two lights equates to small windows, as this suits cottages.

Middi

 

[FamilyWiggs]

were the frames hard to put together in your window? Me being a pauper would save a heap of cash if i could do most of this my self. Also , how are the lights secured to the iron frame?

The oak frames were quite simple. Just square-section planed oak (sanded to take the sharpness off the arrises), morticed-and-tenoned together, and pegged from the inside. It's worth making your peg-holes blind, in order to reduce the risk of water penetrating the peg-hole or the end-grain of the peg from the outside. Remember to include the steel saddle-bars (horizontal bars just inside the leaded-lights that help to support the membrane) at the assembly stage.

I used a router to cut rebates for the leaded light and for the casement, squaring off the corners with a chisel.

The trickiest part was getting the hinge-hooks fitted accurately into the frame, so that the casement swung squarely into the rebate. This required a fair bit of careful hammering (after the hooks had been driven into pre-drilled interference holes), to tweak the axial, vertical and horizontal alignment.

The fixed leaded-light membrane was fitted into the wooden frame rebate with plenty of copper sprigs and putty. The membranes had copper wires soldered to the cames, and these were twisted firmly around the saddle-bars. The copper was a bit old and work-hardened so I had to do this very carefully.

As I said above, I re-used the steel casement from the old window, so I'm afraid I'm not sure how the leaded membrane was fixed into it. It appeared to be planted on the outside of the steel casement and flushed with putty on the outside, but I'm not certain whether it was perhaps soldered to the steel under the putty. It also had saddle bars. I presume you'd need to get the casement and the leaded lights made by a specialist - I'm sure he could tell you how the membrane is fitted to the casement (or do it for you).

I hope that's some help.

Post of the day Penners. Thankyou.

What is the "membrane" though?

I was just thinking through why diamond preceded square light, and concluded it was to make use of broken bits at the edges, and along comes our resident Italian expert and confirms it. I'm on fire today!
I think I'll solve the Middle East Peace Problem next...

 

[Penners]

Is there any kind of equation to figure out window size in proportion to a wall or house?

I can't remember whether you're listed, Rob. If so, then your CO will have a view on that.

If you're not, then the building regs say that your glazed area of window must be no less than 10% of the floor area of the room, and the opening window area must be no less than 5% of the floor area. I should perhaps add that I learned this equation several decades ago, but I believe it still applies. But do check.

If you're planning a brand new window, where none existed before, then there are also all kinds of regulations about insulation values. But I'm afraid I know nothing about the details. The following is a commercial web page, so is trying to sell you something, but the information might be of some help: http://www.windowstoday.co.uk/fensa_update.htm

 

[Penners]

What is the "membrane" though?

It's simply the glass. You can't really refer to it as a "sheet" or "pane", because it's made up of lots of small pieces held together by the lead cames. The expression normally used, therefore, is (in my limited experience) the "membrane".

 

[Penners]

I think I'll solve the Middle East Peace Problem next...

Do keep up, FW. Tony Blair solved that a-g-e-s ago. It's just taking a wee while for his solution to work. :roll:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

I think I'll solve the Middle East Peace Problem next...

Do keep up, FW. Tony Blair solved that a-g-e-s ago. It's just taking a wee while for his solution to work. :roll:

I've decided we should sweep up all the stones all over the Middle East... it always starts with stonethrowing.