Steps made of lime?

[JoceAndChris]

My stone steps down to the kitchen are getting worse; another lump fell off

They are the same golden Ancaster stone as the floor above:

This how they were in 1985 with the old metal nosings, the red floor paint and the smart fictive skirting

If I had a stonemason come he could possibly chip them smooth and we could have a golden stone staircase? (after stripping off the remainder of the paint?') I had Boss out and they said it wasn't good conservation. They quoted 8k for new stone treads and risers to be laid over the top. It's more then I want to pay, especially as I want a smart striped spiral stair runner by Roger Oates! With brass rods and little acorn finials.

Would limecrete be strong enough to smooth over the top, without chipping off? Then I'd have a nice base for my runner, though I accept that might look odd at the edges of the runner. The other option is of course cement. Any thoughts much appreciated.

 

[johnobirches]

Hi - I've just laid 3 limecrete floors and there is a step between two of them.
I'm putting flagstones down so the step will be faced in stone but for the moment the limecrete edge is exposed.
I don't think it would take foot traffic over any length of time without crumbling away.
Can you get a stone yard to saw you some one inch slabs from Ancaster stone and face the treads and risers of the stairs as if you were tiling them?
Mind you - if you squared the stairs off with limecrete say (with fibres in the mix) and then carpeted them the carpet would protect the limecrete edge.
If any did come away in time it could be patched up and hidden again under the carpet.
Good Luck
John

 

[Roger H]

Maybe lithomex?

 

[plasticpigeon]

Lithomex has cement in it I'm sure. Why not fill with a weak cement mix or cement/lime mix using sand that is a similar colour to the stone. If there is a runner over the top and it won't show much wouldn't that be better? I would think that since lime takes a very long time to fully harden (many months or years even) then using even NHL5 for tread repair might risk the repair breaking off quickly unless it can be left for ages.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks so much for the responses. I've got Skillingtons coming out for a pre-assessment of the render job and I think I'm going to throw this job into the pot too - it's nice to have some knowledge about Lithomex, thanks Roger and also to know that limecrete probably won't be robust -thanks John. This is a heavily used staircase and must be strong. We could cordon it off for a short while as there are outside stairs down to the kitchen but I suspect cordoning off for a period of months would be impossible. I also think lifting the carpet to make repairs underneath wouldn't be within my skills - apparently laying an Oates runner on a spiral is a highly specialised job, so once it's down it's down.

Can you get a stone yard to saw you some one inch slabs from Ancaster stone and face the treads and risers of the stairs as if you were tiling them?
John

This is the option that was going to be 8k; I should get some more quotes.

Lithomex has cement in it I'm sure. Why not fill with a weak cement mix or cement/lime mix using sand that is a similar colour to the stone. If there is a runner over the top and it won't show much wouldn't that be better? I would think that since lime takes a very long time to fully harden (many months or years even) then using even NHL5 for tread repair might risk the repair breaking off quickly unless it can be left for ages.

Thanks plastic - I wonder if Lithomex is more breathable than a weak cement mix, or much the same? The stones rest on earth.

No one commenting on the chipping away to create a smooth step idea- presumably stone can be ground to a smoothness if the chisel is too unreliable? With an angle grinder? it would mean a slightly longer step down but as they're rather shallow at present I don't think that would be a problem.

I'd guess carving in any material is unreliable, maybe it would be too hard and to unpredictable to embark on.

 

[88v8]

We had some of our Painswick stone stairs taken out, the tops cut off with a huge water-cooled circular saw and new tops epoxied on. But that's not an option for you, I'd have thought.
Your existing steps aren't really 'breathing'. Stone doesn't breath, or not so as you'd notice, that happens through the joints, and as far as I can see, there are no joints. So I wouldn't worry too much about using a cement-based product. What would matter to me is that it should look uniform and be smooth. If you lay carpet on an uneven surface, the carpet will soon be destroyed, underlay or not.

Ivor

 

[Willmatt]

Hi,

Registered long ago but my memory lapsed a while back of what my log in was so have re registered....that's what a few years of living in Norfolk does. Back there in a couple of weeks so should be careful....

Lithomex is NHL based rather than cement based but has a better cousin from memory called Litholiant specially targeted for more structural repairs like steps etc. where stength is needed. Both are used widely in conservation work. Moved to Scotland now, works well even in the weather here! It is supposed to be highly breathable and is well regarded.

I am sure the Masons would do a good job but the price seems expensive especially if partly covered with carpet! Lithomex/Litholiant can or at least until recently be colour matched very well. Try the Masons Mortar website or another supplier, you can buy grouped samples to match yourself if you don't want to colour match exactly. There are also even some day courses depending on location for more skilled visible carved repairs. I used both products internally without instruction and it seemed to work fine. I have some external sandstone steps to repair in the new house that I was intending on repairing rather than replacing (poorly repaired for some reason with pink cement which wasn't too noticeable until jet washed)..

It's something like £50 per 25kg bag for Litholiant (Lithomex should be cheaper)

It would certainly be a minimal job costing perhaps £100 or £200 compared to £8000 quoted for new stone, can look very good. Very cheap solution if you do it yourself! Hope this helps.

Willmatt

 

[JoceAndChris]

Very true.

I'd like to have seen your steps being removed and sawn - it sounds extraordinary!

No, you're right that there aren't joints in the steps but there are one or two breathing holes. But the steps aren't damp unless there's high humidity outside in which case condensation can form on them, so I don't believe "breathing", as such, is taking place, but still seems bad conservation to entirely slather in cement??

 

[Roger H]

Forget my previous suggestion. Lithomex website:

It is not suitable for repairs to stair treads.

I expect the only permanent solution would be to have a mason chase out to a sufficient depth and then let in some new stone to repair the tread.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Roger- didn't spot that on the website - a pity but it must be one of the most high use areas for a filler type repair to go. It seems there's a straight choice - cement or new stone.

 

[angrybird]

Have you thought of wooden treads?

I had a stone staircase through the centre of the house which suffered terrible damp problems as they are underground! I had similar issues to you with the front of the treads chipping off, there have been some interesting "repairs" done over the years by the PO. :?
It would have cost a fortune to have new stairs made of stone so I opted for a wooden staircase placed over the top of the old stone staircase,as it would have broken my heart to rip the soul out of the poor old house and if a future custodian would like to reinstate the stone stairs they can easily take the wooden staircase out.

 

[plasticpigeon]

http://www.masonsmortar.co.uk/knowledge/page/litholiant-step-repair

But I'm sure it is just some lime cement mix. I read it somewhere on a data sheet I think, but can't find it now.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks pp - useful to know at least there is a product specifically targeted for purpose. But something is really niggling me about just slathering the cementitious compound over -probably something to do with covering over, forever, what angrybird calls the soul of the house, making it very hard for anyone in the future to see what was there or repair it. Plus a good many people who've visited say they they love the steps just as they are (including the mason form Boss), but it is a hard staircase to use and in my opinion not pretty.

Angrybird- wooden steps have been suggested to me before; could you tell me more about yours? What wood is it? Who made it? How have you finished it, how's it wearing and is it clattery? I'd love a pic!

We made one over the concrete steps in our London flat, we made it out of laminate edged with that beading stuff. It's alright, it was cheap and relatively easy to DIY but I wouldn't do another one that way. And it is very noisy.

 

[angrybird]

joce it was made out of reclaimed pine boards and was made by my other half, he's a carpenter.
I didn't want a super fancy staircase as the house was an old blacksmiths and it wouldn't have been very grand,I am going to have a blacksmith made handrail to keep it traditional. I haven't decided whether to have a stair runner or not yet.
It isnt noisy at all, not even with the dog,cats and teenager running up and down it
I will take a pic tomorrow as I haven't got a light up yet ( Rome wasn't built in a day and all that)

j x

 

[JoceAndChris]

Ahh that's lovely thank you, it sounds ideal. How nice to have a carpenter as your other half; what a stroke of luck!

I should imagine that would be a pretty cost effective solution and look good too - is it wooden treads and risers or just treads? Did he pack anything into the gaps between the stone and the wood?

Like your house this is a working part of the house and needs to be functional and durable rather than fancy. And Georgian staircases like this one were hidden behind doors quite often so they can be plain Janes, not the sweeping grandiose affairs of the late 19th C.

 

[Zebra]

This isn't very relevant or helpful, but I have attached a picture! I've made new treads and risers over an existing old staircase. The original ones were timber though, so not really much use to you.

 

[LadyArowana]

Those look good Zebra, and the original fabric is still there too Are the puppy pictures going to be secreted inside as some sort of protection from the evil eye? I know cats and shoes were traditional, but maybe you have decided to bring things into the 21st Century.

 

[Zebra]

No, it's just that bare laths are a very good place to hang Get Well/Birthday/Christmas cards.

 

[Penners]

Joce, when you indicate that you might be open to the idea of wood steps, are you considering laying them over the top of the existing stone ones?

The reason I ask is that this would, of course, change the height of the first and last steps by the thickness of the wood - the top step would be shallower and bottom step deeper.

This may not sound terribly important, but I do urge you not to treat it lightly. A setup like this is not permissible under the building regs, for a very good reason: it can be dangerous. The business of walking up and down stairs is something that we come to take for granted, and if a step is suddenly different in height from the others in the flight it can unbalance us and easily cause falls. Even if you and Chris become used to it, elderly family and friends could be caught out.

 

[JoceAndChris]

That's very true Mr P. I've stumbled often on surprising steps like the differently heighted ones you mention. If a wooden staircase then, perhaps the stone could be reduced or built up at top and bottom as necessary? We're back then to hacking away at the original fabric but I am really keen to make this staircase safer, not substitute it for something just as dangerous in a different way! Would that work though? can't stretch my brain enough to figure it out. Thanks for pointing out the issue.

Good work Zebra, lovely to see your steps - were they very tricky and fiddly to make? What was the motivation for doing so?