Staining Floorboards Yes/No?

[Toby Newell]

Mmm

 

[Toby Newell]

Staining is quite different from sealing in my book.
Stain can sink into the wood and alter the colour for good whereas a seal remains on the surface of the wood similar to most paint.
As for proclaiming that Victorians would not allow bare wood to predominate in their houses I can assure you that the majority of floor staining that we see now was done in the 1950s.
Covered but untreated or waxed wooden floorboards was the de rigueur for most rooms before that.

Sorry Lime, I do not wish to appear rude, all I am doing is pointing out that 'your book' does not necessarily tally with the real life books on the subject. Water, chemical and nitro stains (old oil stains) can penetrate into the timber as can a spirit stain if dissolved purely in meths and no shellac is added as a carrier, the simple fact is most stains you buy these days are pigmented finishes which are simply like thinned out paints which rest on the surface, so your definition is incorrect. Indeed I almost always employ the use of spirit stains in shellac with a little pigment powder added, this has the benefit of partially soaking in for a good bond and acting as a primer sealer. Furthermore, oil finishes penetrate into the wood more than most stains so your assertion does not hold up, sorry.

My parents as I remember painted the floor boards of their first flat, part of a large Victorian house they later bought, blue, because they could not afford carpet. I am sure many did the same.

I can only go on my experience. I was referring to my time in the craft, not time on the planet, you are, obviously, not a wood restorer, I may not have seen as many floors as you, but I think I have seen a large enough number for me to make a rational and reasoned opinion. Out of the several hundred floors I have restored and the several thousand I have viewed, mostly in London and the South East I must add, most were not finished, just stained around the perimeter in period with the floor. One can tell how long the stain has been applied as the patination of the timber underneath is lighter and the difference greater to the unstained portion in the middle. I do not see many floors that are painted at all, maybe half a dozen to a dozen a year, which may or may not have been painted in the 1950's, I very rarely see staining from the 1950's as indeed you must know any stain will have blown long before 50 years are up. I do see a fair amount of contemporary stained floors from the 1980's onwards.

Floors were never just waxed, they were finished with oil, varnish or shellac then waxed as you say, as a way to cleaning them. I am afraid it would not be possible to wax a wooden floor every day, the build up would be so great the floor would absorb water vapour, the wax would bloom, become misty, slippery and very dangerous and would need the wax washing off with hot soda water and rewaxing afresh. Floors were waxed much more periodically. It does not appear you may have waxed many wooden floors, it is extremely hard work. I think most floors would have been waxed once a month perhaps. I advise my customers to wax their floors once a year.

It may be that some floors were stained or painted in the 1950's and were sanded before I got to see them, still, the majority of floors I see are original and untouched.

Anyway, I repeat, I did not and do not wish to appear rude, just point out some historical and technical facts. I am sorry if that upsets you, everyone is entitled to air their opinions and I am airing mine, which I think, is relatively well informed. I have given advice on here since the forum started. If you look at my 'member since' date you will see it is 2006 on 11 May, 2 days after the forum launched. I have given countless hours to offering advice and writing articles to try and help people in a subject I love, when I see erroneous information being perpetuated I try and correct this as many people on here are deeply interested in doing the 'right' or ethical thing for their property, to be in keeping with, or in sympathy with the historical period of their property and I respect that.

 

[Lime]

Toby Newell, I'm sorry if I have upset you.

Your reply tells me that you feel your professional experience has been questioned.
Yes it has.
While I do not intend to become personal nor try to sell my self on this forum you are not about to deny my experience of decades.
Try to belittle me by all means but that only reflects your hurt feelings and that was not my intention.

I don't set myself up as a font of knowledge on this forum.
I do have a lot of experience with older houses that most people do not.
Most of my young working life was associated with pre WW2 buildings, mostly London Victorian, and that work involved raising 100s of floors with minimum of damage.
(unlike those workmen that had gone before!)

One of my family members was my "font of knowledge" concerning old building construction. He made his fortune surveying and assessing war reparations in the 50s.

I don't write on this forum as an expert. All I give is my experience.

I have given countless hours to offering advice and writing articles to try and help people in a subject I love, when I see erroneous information being perpetuated I try and correct this as many people on here are deeply interested in doing the 'right' or ethical thing for their property, to be in keeping with, or in sympathy with the historical period of their property and I respect that.

I think that is rather pompous, don't you?
Just listen to yourself.

You sound like a salesman.

 

[LadyArowana]

I have a floor with black stuff on in our Georgian townhouse, I saw it when the electricians had the old carpet up to install the smoke alarms. The picture is the drawing room, but the withdrawing room has the same. I am more than willing to let you have a room each to play with and when you are both finished we can all vote on who has done the best, :lol:

 

[plasticpigeon]

I feel that the word stain is often used very ambiguously. It seems that the word wood stain is often used to mean a coloured varnish, or at least at present it does. However I think that what is sold now as a wood dye, (a stain in some kind of solvent but with no body, such as shellac or cellulose for example) from a couple of old books I have was at one time called a wood stain and this in my experience sinks into the wood more than any coloured varnish or shellac/french polish. Could there be a misunderstanding due to semantics? I know that when finishing a musical instrument, a clear sealer coat (of shellac or cellulose or whatever is being used) is applied to the wood before any colour is applied, as using a colour onto bare wood can make the finish uneven as the colour sinks into some parts of the wod more than others. That is a similar process to how Toby colour matches his floors. I have attached a few pics of a guitar that was repaired using this method. I wanted to strip and colour my floor boards (they have been painted black, green and white in that order) but I can't be bothered now. I thought I would try and persuade my girlfriend that painting them dark brown around the rug or runner could look ok. I wonder what others think.

 

[Lime]

I feel that the word stain is often used very ambiguously. It seems that the word wood stain is often used to mean a coloured varnish, or at least at present it does. However I think that what is sold now as a wood dye, (a stain in some kind of solvent but with no body, such as shellac or cellulose for example) from a couple of old books I have was at one time called a wood stain and this in my experience sinks into the wood more than any coloured varnish or shellac/french polish. Could there be a misunderstanding due to semantics? I know that when finishing a musical instrument, a clear sealer coat (of shellac or cellulose or whatever is being used) is applied to the wood before any colour is applied, as using a colour onto bare wood can make the finish uneven as the colour sinks into some parts of the wod more than others......................

with regard to "stain" I think you are right.
One of the major problems today, when describing materials used in the past, is the fact that they are probably unavailable in the form they once were.

I use the term "wood stain" as it used to be manufactered which sunk deep into the wood and thus stained it for ever.
I take no responsibility for the modern paint manufacturers' use of slovenly terms and expressions to comply with modern restrictions on public access to chemicals and the like.
I shy away from anything that proclaims it is saving the planet (in one form or another) but will usually not be anything like what it is replacing (IME) and often have a very short life.
Looking at the shelves of a modern paint supplier you could be tricked into thinking there was a great diversity of paint available to the public.
In reality the paints are all much of a muchness, varying in finish and colour but very little else.
At one time paint was put on wood to protect it but most modern paints protect almost nothing compared to the old paints of yesteryear.

The other day I went to purchase a large container of methylated spirits from a well-known paint supplier.
They now keep it in a safe just in case they get burgled.
(It took ten minutes for two of them to get it out.)
Last time I bought it a couple of years ago it was displayed for all to see above the till.
What a sad little world it has become,

 

[Toby Newell]

plastic pigeon

You are correct. To quote from my own article on this site:

The definition of a stain is a coloured substance dissolved in a solvent. A stain is translucent, enhances the figure14 and does not obscure it, the solvent soaks into the substrate taking the colour with it. A pigment is a coloured substance held in suspension in a solvent. It consists of tiny solid particles that when applied lay on the surface, they are opaque, do not let light through and obscure the grain (paint is a pigmented finish). Brewed tea is a stain, if left to stand the tea colour does not settle out. Chalk, mud or poster paints in water are pigments and when shaken will form a coloured liquid but when left will settle to the bottom leaving clear water once again.

The problem is that this definition has become confused. To save us all time DIY coating manufacturers have helpfully produced vast ranges of pigmented finishes which are in effect thinned out paints, and labelled them as "stains".

As far as guitars go things are a little different, I have a Spanish Alhambra hand made acoustic which just has clear copal like shellac resin varnish, which is nice as now they coat them with cellulose or melamine. I also have an Epiphone Les Paul Ultra in sunburt maple, this was probably created by staining the background yellow stain (probably a nitro stain) directly onto the maple which gives the depth, then this would have been clear coated and the darker red/brown coloured pigmented finish around the edge would have been blown in with a detail gun like my little Iwata gravity fed, then clear coated.

You would not get the depth to show the 3D like chatoyancy if you pre sealed the wood. Maple and hardwoods, especially highly figured ones are all possible to stain directly with no patchiness in the veneer is high quality and the preparation good. Only softwoods like pine are difficult to stain directly as the early wood stains much darker than the late wood.

The guitar in your picture has a heavy pigmented finish, which is more like a paint than a stain.

 

[Toby Newell]

Sunburst. obviously. Not sunburt.

 

[Toby Newell]

LadyArowana

Cold chisel. Nice.

Your 'black stuff' looks like it is coming off, very rare, unless your floor had been under water for some period of time it looks like it may not be bituminous or just a very very thin layer, it looks greyish/blue/black where as the period stain would have had more of a very dark brown/black look and been more shiny.

Seeing as the paint seems to go a way into the room this looks more like a more contemporary finish, maybe from the er, 1950's... and should be much easier to remove.

I think I have stated my case and decided to take a gentlemanly withdrawal. People seldom like being informed they are wrong. I do. I love it. As it allows me to increase my knowledge base. But most people don't. Ho hum.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Always lovely to see your excellent work Toby. I made a stab at it but nothing like your professionalism, particularly in the blending in of the 1980s replacement boards - that seems so hard.

I've got another 19th C one to do, this week actually. How I wish I could afford you! But alas, we just parted with £2500 for an engineered oak floor for our London flat, which does look super, but doesn't have the character of a restored antique floor.

The floor I've got to do is incredibly stained so I'll read through your advice carefully again and see what you suggest for sanding. I've already tried soapy water and a good scrub, repeated, but it looks like there've been several dozen bottles of red wine hurled about.

Plastic - I don't think you should paint your floor brown round the edges, sorry but that sounds like an unattractive solution to me. Could a huge rug be the answer - one that goes right up to the skirting? I don't mind light painted floors - something like a French Grey or off white, with a contemporary rug, that looks nice in the right context.

 

[Toby Newell]

JoceandChris

Hi, I may have mentioned before, your floor looks lovely, just different to mine! They are just two sides of the same coin, yours looks infinitely better than what most companies offer these days and has that 'lived in' charm (I refuse to utter the words sh**by ch*c)

If you are mentally up to it I have just spent over a year working on my new website which contains updated versions of all the articles on here and at least ten times as in depth. I have included videos too. I do not want to be accused of advertising I have already asked Rob and Simon if people may find a sticky to the new articles helpful.

If you want to see them you may remember my floor sanding website or pm me and I can remind you of the address. Not the best weather for sanding!!! Ho hum, at least the finish will dry super quickly.

All the best, Toby.

 

[Toby Newell]

Plastic

And yes, plastic, one always has to have a compromise between practicality, aesthetics and historical rigour. Perhaps oil your floor or apply shellac and wax even add a slight spirit tint to the shellac to put back some of the lost patination, I agree with JoceandChris I am not sure a brown/black stain will do much to lift the room.

Toby

 

[LadyArowana]

LadyArowana

Cold chisel. Nice.

Your 'black stuff' looks like it is coming off, very rare, unless your floor had been under water for some period of time it looks like it may not be bituminous or just a very very thin layer, it looks greyish/blue/black where as the period stain would have had more of a very dark brown/black look and been more shiny.

Seeing as the paint seems to go a way into the room this looks more like a more contemporary finish, maybe from the er, 1950's... and should be much easier to remove.

I wish I had had a better look at and poke around on the floor now. At the time I was focused on getting necessaries dealt with so the place could be put up for rental. I had already scared the electricians very badly by sneaking up on them to take pictures, when the auto flash went off they thought someone had been burnt to a crisp, so I was trying not to get in the way. From what I remember it could be dirt and dust on top of the black rather than the finish wearing away. We have already bought a carpet that's destined for that room and part of me wouldn't mind keeping the black, but no decisions yet. The guys did say that they saw a lot of floors done that way underneath modern fitted carpet.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Yes I'm planning a large rug in the front room and a runner in the hall, but at the mo I have a multicolour effect on the boards that will be seen round the edge, some white some green, some beige, so tinted shellac wouldn't really work.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh, what a nightmare! I think I'd be lazy if I knew the rug would be there and strip the edge. It will be a lot quicker than doing the whole thing. A poultice, perhaps, maybe do one session per week? These sorts of boring jobs need chipping away at and if it takes years it doesn't matter.

Thanks for the compliment Toby, it means a lot coming from you. I had a look at your website - what a fantastic resource. You've obviously put a lot of time into writing the articles and giving such comprehensive advice. I shall try to digest!

 

[Toby Newell]

plasticpigeon

If the boards are painted then perhaps a sharp scraper like the Linibide scraper (marketed as the Stanley Tungsten Carbide 50mm scraper) may be a quicker way to remove the paint followed by a little bit of sanding.

If you are using a poultice type stripper, which are heavily caustic (alkaline) then be careful when you get down closer to the wood at it will darken the wood (alkali + wood acid = dark chemical stain) if the colours are just stains then maybe a DCM solvent stripper may be best followed by a gentle sanding, or just, a gentle sanding all round.

Sanding is often thought of as destructive, when removing coatings and cleaning it can be but it certainly doesn't have to be. It is perfectly possible to sand your timber very carefully and still retain a wealth of patination and character and yet let the natural beauty of the wood underneath glow through.

T

 

[Svenedin]

Thank you to Toby and everyone else for your helpful advice. I haven't been online for quite a while. With regard to the bedrooms that were the original starting point for this thread, I sanded them using a belt sander on my hands and knees, a random orbital sander for the edges and a detail sander for the corners and awkward bits. I had some very odd results with test stains on a scrap piece of board. These were water based stains and the pitch pine didn't take the stain up well at all. The stains looked muddy and dull whatever the colour so in the end I didn't stain at all and just applied hard wax oil. I am very pleased with the result and the boards are already darkening of their own accord. I have heard that sunlight darkens wood but they seemed to darken just on exposure to air when they were bare.

I have started another floor. This time a room downstairs. Much bigger than the bedrooms upstairs. Again the same black bituminous stuff around the edges and apparently totally untreated where the rug was.

I did some experiments to try to ascertain what the black "stain" or varnish was. First, I put the wallpaper steamer on it as I had become very bored of stripping wallpaper. There was an obvious smell of tar and the stain became a bit sticky. Next, I tried various solvents to see what would dissolve it. Water did nothing and neither did white spirit. Methylated spirits turned it to brown sludge and it was easily removed with a cloth. I have concluded that there are probably multiple layers: later very dark bituminous stuff and earlier shellac based lacquer. It certainly looks like the earlier layers are french polish.

I now have to decide what to do with this floor. It is pitch pine again but in much better condition than in the bedrooms. It has been under 2 layers of lino and a carpet for many, many years. I don't want to sand it at all as it is pleasantly distressed. I find the dark boards around the edges too dark and I don't like the fact that the grain is completely obscured. I also think the grain obscuring stuff is later. So far I have scrubbed the boards (along the grain only) with wire wool and meths on my hands and knees. This is very tedious work and only a small area is complete but the grain is now clearly visible. When I have done the whole floor I will decide whether to stain it or not. I am inclined not to stain as the floor is naturally quite dark from age and is an attractive colour. I may seal with shellac because I like using shellac (and it appears to have been used in the first place) and then use hard wax oil over the top of that.



Picture showing the effect of meths on the black stain


PS That isn't brilliant white paint (a pet hate). It's actually cream but the phone on my camera doesn't render colour very well. It is gloss though. Anyone with dogs will know why.

 

[LadyArowana]

Excellent progress, well done. Always nice when someone comes back and updates on how a project is going.

 

[Svenedin]

Thank you LadyArowana. I think it is very important that the OP reports back. I have used many message boards, on all kinds of different topics, and the most useful threads are those that contain both questions, answers and the results.

 

[Toby Newell]

Well done.

It is not bitumen, which is good!!!

Meths has no effect on bitumen at all.

It is shellac, or more probably a copal resin type varnish which was shellac based but with added resins.

This is great if you do not want to sand the surface.

Just strip it with a DCM type stripper, it will be ten times quicker than meths (and cheaper) you may want to wear a respirator and ope the windows.

Although you can no longer buy DCM strippers from DIY shops as theoretically it can no longer be bought by the 'end user' contact either Jenkins in Tottenham or Mylands and ask them to send you some, I am sure they will.

I will whisper it quietly as I have not put a link here for years... but seeing as it will be hidden in a lowly post like this, you may want to visit my updated website in the following link, it has 65,000 words in it, all of which cannot possibly be attributed to verbosity and some of which, possibly you may find quite useful, I have 3 articles on there all of which would be applicable to you. Especially these two.

http://www.floorsanding-uk.com/guide%20to%20wood%20stripping.html

http://www.floorsanding-uk.com/guide%20to%20wood%20finishing.html