something scarey in the roof

[charlie-ia]

we have just spent the first two weeks in our new house. not done anything technical, mostly digging minor drains and putting up gutters.
we removed the boards and plastic from the walls. also anything that was hanging loose indoors. mostly looks quite good considering.

the end part of the house (single storey, tin roof, stone built) was boarded on the ceiling with long thin panks. 6 either side were falling off due to woodworm and rot.

when we removed these and looked inside there is a thatch roof.it may possibly be thatch over turf. we have no way of dating it, and dont know how to proceed. we havent touched it at all.

there is heavy woodworm in the bits we looked at (half tree trunk beams and laths), but its very dark and looks fragile. one corner has fallen in a bit, and was resting on the boards we took off (very thin even when new, so not actually supporting much except dust)
sorting through the couple of buckets of muck that fell out were what i would call thatching pins made of probably willow (had bark on) and fragments of straw rope. it is thatched with corn straw not reeds. (and bits of newspaper draught excluder)

there were no gutters (it has now. our first little victory!), the floor has older concrete. fire place sealed up and recently concreted. wall leaks smoke into the cupboard in the chimney brest side where it hasnt been concreted. the stones of the wall are very loose with some missing, and i can only assume its the same higher on the chimney, as yet out of sight. (so we're not having any more fires.) the earth was banked up about 3 feet or more against the end wall, with mountain water run off pouring on, which has now been diverted (hopefully). a small hole through the wall from the old concrete drainchannel has now been patched with more concrete (temporary mugful size patch -lime course on wednesday, please dont shout!) hopefully this will have stemmed the river flowing across the floor. it seems to only do it in a downpour (twice in 12 days). the whole house slopes downhill, so when it comes in it can go where it fancies.

we have left a dehumidifier running in the house.

what do we do next? it scares me.

 

[middi]

Buy a couple of pigs ( male and female) and stick in there .

at least someone will some fun in there

 

[charlie-ia]

i'll ignore that idea for now i think. thanks though. ducks perhaps.

"10. Do take great care when taking advice on the longevity of thatch. There are commonly quoted probable life expectancies for the three principle thatching materials: Water reed 50 - 80 years, Combed Wheat Reed 30 - 40 years and long straw 15 - 25 years. But, of course, there are exceptions to these rules with some cases of water reed roofs lasting only 15 years and long straw roofs lasting 50 years plus. ."

i think that scares me even more! i guess its over 50. how do we tell?

would having the tin roof over it be dertimental making it sweat, or protecting it? i guess now we're starting to dry the house out a bit it will stop it blowing away.

 

[Gervase]

I'll stick my neck out and say that the thatch is undoubtedly beyond salvation - courrugted iron was put over the top of old thatch as a cheap and cheerful alternative to rethatching when the roof started to slip or leak, and half a century of being baked under tin and nibbled by mice will have rendered it useless.
As for how to progress - well, you could rethatch (not cheap, but attractive, although the authentic thatching material for your particular house might not be cost-effective if it turns out to be short-straw or gorse) or you could use currugated iron.
As for the feasibility of either, without actually seeing the undelying timbers its difficult to tell. Some timbers can endure a surprising amount of attack from beetle and rot and still be capable of doing their job, while others hold together on a wing and a prayer, and removing a moth's wing from the roof is enough to disturb the equilibrium and bring them tumbling down. It's where you need to find a good carpenter or surveyor; and any one of them sould have experience of old houses and of restoration and conservation (which is rare, I'm afraid.)
Meanwhile, do photograph and record as much of the existing roof structure as you can; not only to help with restoration, but also as a record for your conservation officer, country archivist and anyone else interested in regional thatching technques!

 

[Lime]

My feelings about the corrugated iron and thatch are much the same as Gervase's.
Old thatch was covered over with tin because the expense was too great to replace the thatch but the owner wished to keep dry!
It was a cheap and cheerful method but at least retained the history for you.
You need to get a good light in there so that you can see what you (and anything else in there with you) are doing.
Take as many pictures as you can as once the thatch is touched it will start to fall apart.
Unfortunately not many builders will have any idea at all about what they see and will feel exactly as you do, confused and a little afraid.
Perhaps a thatcher is the best person to approach.

 

[charlie-ia]

whats likely to happen if we just leave it alone and seal it back in?
the tin looks like its keeping the room dry from above, and we're working on the water from below, so hopefully we can dry it out.
the chimney has been recently lined, but they havent finished the job when they got to the fireplace, so we think we only have the one smoke leak. hopefully that wil sort out any fire hazard.
is it better got rid of sooner rather than later? (after all, we bought it as a tin roof-the survey never mentioned it!) i bet its a breeding ground for all kinds of trouble.
it would be a shame to destroy it, but it sounds like you think it will probably have to go, or be remade completely anyway?

 

[charlie-ia]

surely if we call the local thatcher, theyre undoubtably going to say its worth keeping and needs re thatching, cos thats what keeps them in a job?

are there any ways we can try to date it ourselves?

if we call the council/planning, its (very) likely to get us immediately listed, due to the small number of origonal thatched buildings left in ireland (just over 1000 i think) and then we would have to get it properly repaired wether we liked it or not.
possibly the thatcher would inform the authorities?

ive read the threads on pro's/ cons of listing, and cant make up my mind. instinct says keep quiet& keep my head down.

if we put the ceiling back, and pretend we havent seen anything, is it likely to lead to trouble in the future?
eg pests/vermin
fire hazard (though there are no wires near)
insurance - its not insured as thatch
lack of ventilation -damp, mould and rot
un-expected collapse
I assume that any "expert" is going to have to take off the tin to examine the thatch (you can see clearly from indoors) but this goes against the "if it isnt broke" idea.

any guesses how the tin would have been put on? there isnt much overhang (couple of inch?) wouldnt the thatch have originaly stuck out much further?

if the thatch/ supporting timber is all rotten and ruined, is there much point replacing it? it would only be a copy then surely. does/would this have historical value? from what i read it seems unlikely that we would be able to use all original materials as so much is imported these days

i dont want to get rid of any of it, but we didnt exactly budget for compleat historical reconstruction of the thatch!

I realise there probably arnt many thatch experts on here, and appreciate comments so far, but what would you do in our shoes?

im afraid if i just seal it up, it will haunt me. if i damage it, you lot will haunt me, and if the authorities find out, theyll probably eat me alive!

 

[Nemesis]

I doubt it would be immediately listed - while I'm not familiar with the listing guidelines in Ireland it may take more than simply being thatched to get it listed.

And if it is considered rare and the building as a whole listable then maybe it's the right thing to do?

 

[charlie-ia]

All buildings where the historic thatch survives should be placed on the relevant Record of Protected Structures (each planning authority has a separate RPS) as soon as possible.

from this document, (bit dry and boring)
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Heritage/ArchitecturalHeritage/FileDownLoad,3495,en.pdf

probably the right thing to do, yes. but immediately? wont it end up costing us a fortune? wouldnt we be better off getting the house "fixed up" first?

for example, we just put up new gutters, as it didnt have any. we used cheap black plastic. if it was listed wouldnt we have been faced with putting up something a lot more expensive? wont that go for the whole house?indoors and out?

there are some grants, but mostly if the house is our main dwelling, which it isnt. or if our first language is gaelic. and you know what grants are like...

i was thinking that we could seal it back up and let someone else deal with it in 50 years time. bad idea?

if it was your house, would you be able to cope with it hanging over your head indefinately? this is a common enough question i know. am i right in thinking that once the can has been opened the worms need dealing with?

 

[Nemesis]

I really don't know a great deal about heritage protection in Ireland other than I think it's all a bit iffy, so I have no idea what extra measures would have to be taken once listed.

 

[Penners]

The only things I have to say are probably flippin' obvious, but I'll say them anyway.

You're obviously a bit rattled by all this, and I think you need to take a deep breath and think it through calmly (I hope that doesn't sound patronising - if so, I do apologise).

If I were you, I would sit down and make a list of the things that need to be done to conserve the building and make it comfortably habitable. The most important are clearly the things that will keep the weather out from the top and the damp out from the bottom. Your choice of method and materials will, I imagine, be constrained by your budget, but getting the building weathertight is an absolute priority. Until that is done, continued deterioration is certain.

And of course there's no point in undertaking any internal refurbishment if the building isn't reliably weatherproof.

Told you I was going to be obvious! :wink:

 

[Nemesis]

It's worth investigating further what listing of the thatch actually means - it might not be too terrible, and nice to have something historic and rare.

And - gentle repair is at times not as expensive as some may think, if you conserve what you have and take time.

If the thatch isn't at risk then it may be OK just to leave well alone and untouched at the moment, I doubt that getting it listed would mean you would be expected to instantly repair it all.

 

[Penners]

Don't you think that the corrugated tin covering of the thatch means it's very likely to be bug... er, unserviceable.

 

[Nemesis]

Depends - but there's the dilemma. It might have preserved it too, even if a bit leaky.

And it might be of considerable historic interest.

 

[NT]

quote charlie-ia

> are there any ways we can try to date it ourselves?

Approach it kinda sideways, smile and say 'hey gorgeous.' Be prepared for rejection.


> ive read the threads on pro's/ cons of listing, and cant make up my mind.

Have you not got enough on your plate already.


> if we put the ceiling back, and pretend we havent seen anything, is it likely to lead to trouble in the future?
> eg pests/vermin
> fire hazard (though there are no wires near)
> insurance - its not insured as thatch
> lack of ventilation -damp, mould and rot
> un-expected collapse

why?


> I assume that any "expert" is going to have to take off the tin to examine the thatch

why do you have to do anything? Is it in mid collape?


> (couple of inch?) wouldnt the thatch have originaly stuck out much further?

much further


> I realise there probably arnt many thatch experts on here, and appreciate comments so far, but what would you do in our shoes?

is it collapsing?


> im afraid if i just seal it up, it will haunt me. if i damage it, you lot will haunt me, and if the authorities find out, theyll probably eat me alive![/quote]

crikey. Maybe getting real would help with these fears.


> wouldnt we be better off getting the house "fixed up" first?

I would think so


> if it was listed wouldnt we have been faced with putting up something a lot more expensive? wont that go for the whole house?indoors and out?

listing increases costs & slows down progress greatly.


> there are some grants,

dream on


> if it was your house, would you be able to cope with it hanging over your head indefinately?

Why not? Is it collapsing?

Charlie, methinks you have some issues to deal with.


NT

 

[Nemesis]

I think that the first thing to find out is how listing the thatch would affect anything at all!

 

[Penners]

> are there any ways we can try to date it ourselves?

Approach it kinda sideways, smile and say 'hey gorgeous.' Be prepared for rejection.

Story of my life.

Is it in mid collape?

No, it's in Ireland.

 

[charlie-ia]

it is a bit crumbly in places to say the least. you are right penners, knickers are definately twisted! we're going there on saturday, and i have to look this beast in the eye.

if we do get it thatched my uneducated guess is that it would be a complete new roof. if it was floorboards or something less complicated,but in the same state, i'd have a vague clue where to start, and have no worries about replacement of large parts of it, even if it was ancient and remarkable
the tin is fine by me, and i would wish the blooming thing away (but not willfully destroy it without good reason)

considerable historic interest terrifies me. interesting but useless is more my level.

helpful parents are also complicating things. "you want to get rid of that mess as soon as possible- its just going to infest the rest of your house" i need to be very convincing if im going to argue with my mother!

at least you lot are unbiased. thanks so much for listeneing.

the house has been untouched for a month, but when we left there was a slow trickle of detritus. we have no plans to touch it (literally) immediately, but if the room is going to be used properly, it needs something doing.

The most important are clearly the things that will keep the weather out from the top and the damp out from the bottom

oh yes. windows are this weeks task. more guttering too. we really are just doing emergency stuff. we have a moat at the moment, that next year may become french drains. no sewerage yet either.
any work on the roof is a long time in the future, but i cant risk it getting worse.
i dont know enough about it to know wether to put it on the list of "emergency repairs", or "safe to ignore", and i dont know who to ask without getting in deeper trouble.

im fairly sure it needs some kind of stabilisation if we do seal it back up.(or leave it half done like it is now)
some extra support for the beams, some netting, and some airvents perhaps? anything more? any tips?

the tin is in good repair, cemented down all round, and would be a job to remove. how can we improve the ventilation between the tin and the thatch without risking causing a leak? im sure this would be important, but would have to be a quick do, or we might as well go the whole hog.

sorry for blathering on.

 

[Raylea]

Wow, sometimes you just need to get it of ya chest for the fear of explosion. God been there and didn't pause between sentences, a little understanding of someones stress levels and the need to be listened to wouldn't go a miss.

Breathe, breathe some more and then when you can actually make sense of whats happening, you will figure out whats needed in a rational way of dealing with it. Don't break down like I did (and I am being serious pills an all) its not funny or to be mocked.

Raylea :shock:

 

[Lady_Mari]

Charlie-ia,
If as you say, the tin is in good repair, cemented down all round, could you not remove the worst of the thatch internally so as to see what condition the timbers are in?
It might also be an idea to get an estimate from a thatcher to discover whether you actually have it re-thatched some time in the future, I know it's very expensive in the UK.
On the other hand, re-roofings not cheap either but at least you'd have a comparison & may then decide to stay with the tin.