- Thread starter HelenB
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Jill
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Damp in the conservatory is a big no no where the oak is concerned, and what about in the kitchen. Is the oak flooring you are in the process of buying already finished, is it suitable for use in a wettish area ie round the kitchen sink. If you go down the batten route you also need to ensure that each piece finishes and starts on a battten for fixing - have you ordered enough to do this?
We thought we had ordered plenty with some left over for another little job but because the packs varied in quantity it was down to the skill of our joiner to fix them all together - he said it was a bit like a jigsaw laying them on the joists (battens) so there was minimal wastage. Fortunately the bedroom where we had it laid is not square so the wall which runs inwards helped ensure we had enough. I personally believe they didn't bring one pack. (just remembered that - too late to question it now)
Another point - I am presuming it is tounge and groove when you say the clicky type - just ensure whoever fixes it doesn't cut the tongue bit off on the width or it won't fit snuggly to the next bit - the groove needs cutting. This bit isn't from experience my builder told me.
If I were you, and you are still going ahead with the oak flooring - given all the advice you have been given I would go back to where you are buying it from and get them to answer your questions, if you are not happy ask for a refund presuming you have had to pay a deposit. If you still decide to go ahead then do it when you are more aware - don't rush in to it or you may regret it
(and get a good telling off on here in the process - I am speaking from experience here - only joking folks)
We thought we had ordered plenty with some left over for another little job but because the packs varied in quantity it was down to the skill of our joiner to fix them all together - he said it was a bit like a jigsaw laying them on the joists (battens) so there was minimal wastage. Fortunately the bedroom where we had it laid is not square so the wall which runs inwards helped ensure we had enough. I personally believe they didn't bring one pack. (just remembered that - too late to question it now)
Another point - I am presuming it is tounge and groove when you say the clicky type - just ensure whoever fixes it doesn't cut the tongue bit off on the width or it won't fit snuggly to the next bit - the groove needs cutting. This bit isn't from experience my builder told me.
If I were you, and you are still going ahead with the oak flooring - given all the advice you have been given I would go back to where you are buying it from and get them to answer your questions, if you are not happy ask for a refund presuming you have had to pay a deposit. If you still decide to go ahead then do it when you are more aware - don't rush in to it or you may regret it
(and get a good telling off on here in the process - I am speaking from experience here - only joking folks)
Schoolmarm
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Don't think in terms of "raising" the conservatory floor. Instead, look outside to see how you can lower the ground level.
JoceAndChris
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A lot of great points are made above.
You mustn't think that pouring concrete about and laying damp proof courses will do anything at all to deter damp. Like you, my kitchen area is below ground level- in fact it's effectively in a cellar. Like you, one section has flags laid on earth. This is the best bit in terms of damp. Then there are some old pamments, and they sweat a lot. That moisture is removed daily, either manually with mops etc or with the use of a dehumidifier.
The worst section is where tanking and concrete has been put down. That forces the moisture into the walls, and causes all my food which is kept in the cupboards there to go mouldy. The scenario I describe is very common; people often mistakenly try these remedies - they can make things a little better for a short while but are far worse in the long term.
To address damp, you should first think about reducing the condensation which is one of the worst contributors: http://www.spab.org.uk/advice/technical-qas/technical-qa-25-condensation/ http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/ppuk_discovering_article_045.shtml
You could also think about getting French drains dug outside your conservatory: http://www.spab.org.uk/advice/technical-qas/technical-qa-19-french-drains/
This is also a good article for starting out with hone "improvements" on an old house: http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/ppuk_discovering_article_011.shtml
Good luck!
You mustn't think that pouring concrete about and laying damp proof courses will do anything at all to deter damp. Like you, my kitchen area is below ground level- in fact it's effectively in a cellar. Like you, one section has flags laid on earth. This is the best bit in terms of damp. Then there are some old pamments, and they sweat a lot. That moisture is removed daily, either manually with mops etc or with the use of a dehumidifier.
The worst section is where tanking and concrete has been put down. That forces the moisture into the walls, and causes all my food which is kept in the cupboards there to go mouldy. The scenario I describe is very common; people often mistakenly try these remedies - they can make things a little better for a short while but are far worse in the long term.
To address damp, you should first think about reducing the condensation which is one of the worst contributors: http://www.spab.org.uk/advice/technical-qas/technical-qa-25-condensation/ http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/ppuk_discovering_article_045.shtml
You could also think about getting French drains dug outside your conservatory: http://www.spab.org.uk/advice/technical-qas/technical-qa-19-french-drains/
This is also a good article for starting out with hone "improvements" on an old house: http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/ppuk_discovering_article_011.shtml
Good luck!
Toby Newell
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Hi
If you don't know me I have a couple of peices published on here and have answered a few dozen questions. I restore period floors and lay them for a living (my family have been wood restorers for over 100 years)
The ideal solution would be to fit a damp proof membrane (er fancy name for a very large, ordinary peice of polythene sheet)1000 guage from your local builders depot should be fine, cost you around £35. Remember to overlap the joins by 4 inches and run up the walls/behind skirtings by an inch or so and remember to tape all the joins/seams with vapour tape (moisture tape, foil tape, basically any tape that is moisture resistant, it looks like sticky silver foil, your kids will love it) if you don't do this the moisture will escape the seams, very crafty things vapours.
Whether or not your concrete sub floor has a damp proof membrane (not strictly accurate, a membrane denotes a thin skin on the outside, the concrete dpm is much lower) concrete is still hydroscopic and so will absorb moisture from its local surroundings, if the house is old and 'breathes' more then it is likely to let in more damp which is attracted to the concrete. ALWAYS fit a dpm on the surface.
Next, lay the floor on battens, this allows the wood to move as is its want (in death as in life) will allow a free passage of air beneath and will ensure the humidity and heat difference between the underside and the topside of the board are closer (concrete retains the cold and is damper) this reduces the dimensional distortion of the board. Battens only need to be high enough to be able to let you fix the boards (secret nail) at a 45 degree angle with a 50mm (2 inch) ring shank (nail) or brad.
I agree with whomever said concrete and wood don't really don't go together, no they do not! Wood likes to move and is quite stubborn about it, insistent even. Just because you may have decided to glue it to a cold damp concrete surface doesn't mean it will stop trying to escape if it feels like it. I don't like laying solid wood direct to concrete I think if you are going to go down the glue route you should consider using an engineered board (unfinished of course and a good quality FSC certified French/European board, not a cheap Chinese one of dubious origin, of course) and while your at it, forget the floor glue, it's expensive don't you know, smelly and generally not great for the environmoent and fit a floating floor, much easier, much less glue too. One kilo of D3 rated waterproof PVA should do it.
So to summarise: 1. Yes fit dpm, costs £35. Acoustalay underlay, good thermal properties, good accoustic properties, cheap, £50 to £60 will do you. 2. Fit solid wood to battens or lay floating engineered floor over dpm. 3. Try not to glue to concrete. 4. If you are fitting the solid oak floor yourselves, please check out the basics! like please don't glue the floor, oak likes to move, it's very lively so just nail it, if you glue it it will eventually stress and give every few joints and leave a very large (5-15mm) gap every few joints rather than a 1 or 2mm every joint. (You can glue engineered board as it is more dimensionally stable) leave the wood to acclimatise for at least a week with the heating ON as normal in the room itself or as near to. Ideally leave the floor when laid for a couple of days to settle down before you finish it. 5. Finish as you like. Hope this helps.
If you don't know me I have a couple of peices published on here and have answered a few dozen questions. I restore period floors and lay them for a living (my family have been wood restorers for over 100 years)
The ideal solution would be to fit a damp proof membrane (er fancy name for a very large, ordinary peice of polythene sheet)1000 guage from your local builders depot should be fine, cost you around £35. Remember to overlap the joins by 4 inches and run up the walls/behind skirtings by an inch or so and remember to tape all the joins/seams with vapour tape (moisture tape, foil tape, basically any tape that is moisture resistant, it looks like sticky silver foil, your kids will love it) if you don't do this the moisture will escape the seams, very crafty things vapours.
Whether or not your concrete sub floor has a damp proof membrane (not strictly accurate, a membrane denotes a thin skin on the outside, the concrete dpm is much lower) concrete is still hydroscopic and so will absorb moisture from its local surroundings, if the house is old and 'breathes' more then it is likely to let in more damp which is attracted to the concrete. ALWAYS fit a dpm on the surface.
Next, lay the floor on battens, this allows the wood to move as is its want (in death as in life) will allow a free passage of air beneath and will ensure the humidity and heat difference between the underside and the topside of the board are closer (concrete retains the cold and is damper) this reduces the dimensional distortion of the board. Battens only need to be high enough to be able to let you fix the boards (secret nail) at a 45 degree angle with a 50mm (2 inch) ring shank (nail) or brad.
I agree with whomever said concrete and wood don't really don't go together, no they do not! Wood likes to move and is quite stubborn about it, insistent even. Just because you may have decided to glue it to a cold damp concrete surface doesn't mean it will stop trying to escape if it feels like it. I don't like laying solid wood direct to concrete I think if you are going to go down the glue route you should consider using an engineered board (unfinished of course and a good quality FSC certified French/European board, not a cheap Chinese one of dubious origin, of course) and while your at it, forget the floor glue, it's expensive don't you know, smelly and generally not great for the environmoent and fit a floating floor, much easier, much less glue too. One kilo of D3 rated waterproof PVA should do it.
So to summarise: 1. Yes fit dpm, costs £35. Acoustalay underlay, good thermal properties, good accoustic properties, cheap, £50 to £60 will do you. 2. Fit solid wood to battens or lay floating engineered floor over dpm. 3. Try not to glue to concrete. 4. If you are fitting the solid oak floor yourselves, please check out the basics! like please don't glue the floor, oak likes to move, it's very lively so just nail it, if you glue it it will eventually stress and give every few joints and leave a very large (5-15mm) gap every few joints rather than a 1 or 2mm every joint. (You can glue engineered board as it is more dimensionally stable) leave the wood to acclimatise for at least a week with the heating ON as normal in the room itself or as near to. Ideally leave the floor when laid for a couple of days to settle down before you finish it. 5. Finish as you like. Hope this helps.
Toby Newell
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- Surrey
In addendum.
I had not fully read all of the posts, scanning through I can see you have a damp problem and the area in question is below ground level. I would not fit a solid oak floor in this area. I have put the phone down on many insistant Architects and designers as I whisper no, no, no... big mistake, if anyone told you this would be a good idea then obviously they: 1. Are bonkers 2. The owner of a very advanced sense of humour 3. Have no idea what they are talking about. or 4. Would really quite like to sell you some wood actually.
Think of another solution! Or at least you have to use an engineered board and with regard to my advice about the dpm, do not fit this until you have found the source of the damp problem and it has been remedied, otherwise you risk making matters worse as you block off a large evaporation area for the moisture, it will have to go somewhere else. Sorry, remember if you cannot take it back oak last for ages and can be used to make many wonderful things, like furniture for example. Good luck and get that damp seen to first.
I had not fully read all of the posts, scanning through I can see you have a damp problem and the area in question is below ground level. I would not fit a solid oak floor in this area. I have put the phone down on many insistant Architects and designers as I whisper no, no, no... big mistake, if anyone told you this would be a good idea then obviously they: 1. Are bonkers 2. The owner of a very advanced sense of humour 3. Have no idea what they are talking about. or 4. Would really quite like to sell you some wood actually.
Think of another solution! Or at least you have to use an engineered board and with regard to my advice about the dpm, do not fit this until you have found the source of the damp problem and it has been remedied, otherwise you risk making matters worse as you block off a large evaporation area for the moisture, it will have to go somewhere else. Sorry, remember if you cannot take it back oak last for ages and can be used to make many wonderful things, like furniture for example. Good luck and get that damp seen to first.