Solar pv generation

[Flyfisher]

Perhaps a better way to stimulate the growth of renewable energy industries would be to simply increase the tax on fossil fuels to a level at which expensive renewable technologies become economically competitive?

Of course - but Mr Osborne is doing the opposite.

. . . just like every other country around the world . . . because public opinion won't accept the 'required' tax increases that the green lobby would like to see. Saving the planet seems to have a lower priority around the world than restoring economic growth.

That's not to suggest the green lobby is wrong about climate change, though it does suggest that few people are taking it particularly seriously - especially compared with the priority of not missing their flight home from the latest UN climate talks. After all, saving the planet is one thing but missing a flight doesn't even bear thinking about. :roll:

UN climate talks may be running out of time to make an agreement. . . . . It is unclear also whether conclusion can be reached before real-world concerns such as delegates' flights and use of the convention centre force a closure.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16124670

 

[Lime]

From the BBC link:

But her German counterpart Norbert Roettgen said India was part of a blocking trinity.

"Only a very few countries stand in the way of an agreement here," he said.

"These are the main emitters, as been the case throughout the week - the US, China, and India."

Exactly right.
The whole event is a waste of hot air.
Nonsense in: nonsense out.

 

[skier-hughes]

Having just input my meter readings, I'm producing a days worth of electricity in a week currently.

 

[biffvernon]

As much as that?

The COP17 'agreement' sets us on the road to runaway global warming and the end of human life on Earth. Our species' best hope, nasty but potentially survivable, is a complete collapse of the global financial system and the end of much of the manufacturing industry.

 

[skier-hughes]

I've no idea how that compares to other people? How much did you produce last week in comparison?
If the manufacturing industry collapses, how we going to make all those solar panel and wind turbines to save us?

 

[biffvernon]

I've no idea how that compares to other people? How much did you produce last week in comparison?
If the manufacturing industry collapses, how we going to make all those solar panel and wind turbines to save us?

My generation readings from 11/11/11 to 10/12/11:

1.89kWh
3.36
2.64
4.45
5.41
3.27
3.87
1.86
8.14
8.43
3.07
0.55
1.77
5.60
8.94
2.03
9.34
4.79
4.48
4.70
4.30
5.75
6.36
2.89
3.62
7.90
6.92
0.80
6.07
7.96

If the manufacturing industry collapses we do without, like we did for the previous many millennia. Nasty but potentially survivable.

Note that after April the FiT rate goes down to 9p for houses that are not at least C-grade on their Energy Performance Certificate. That rules out 80% of UK homes. It doesn't make much sense when the electricity generated is not used for domestic heating. Now that our 'greenest government ever' has cast us adrift in the Atlantic it seems that anything the Germans did successfully cannot be allowed to be copied.

 

[biffvernon]

Ok, those Germans are just showing off now. Not only has the nation announced plans to shut down all of its nuclear power plants and started the construction of 2,800 miles of transmission lines for its new renewable energy initiative, but now the village of Wildpoldsried is producing 321% more energy than it needs! The small agricultural village in the state of Bavaria is generating an impressive $5.7 million in annual revenue from renewable energy

http://inhabitat.com/german-village-produces-321-more-energy-than-it-needs/

 

[Flyfisher]

I've no idea how that compares to other people?

Biff's numbers are interesting but you need to know the number/capacity of your respective pv panels to make a fair comparison.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

As much as that?

The COP17 'agreement' sets us on the road to runaway global warming and the end of human life on Earth. Our species' best hope, nasty but potentially survivable, is a complete collapse of the global financial system and the end of much of the manufacturing industry.

Well on that cheery note, I'm beginning to lose interest in saving the planet for future unmet and unknown generations - the sacrifices are just too unpalatable for most people. Lets just go out with a great party. I suggest a barbecue as the weather's going to be nice and warm I hear. 8)

 

[Flyfisher]

Ok, those Germans are just showing off now. Not only has the nation announced plans to shut down all of its nuclear power plants and started the construction of 2,800 miles of transmission lines for its new renewable energy initiative, but now the village of Wildpoldsried is producing 321% more energy than it needs! The small agricultural village in the state of Bavaria is generating an impressive $5.7 million in annual revenue from renewable energy

http://inhabitat.com/german-village-produces-321-more-energy-than-it-needs/

Not particularly difficult to achieve when huge FIT subsidies to big business funds the covering of fields with pv panels, as I saw in Plattling this summer.

As for the UK FIT changes:
Less than a year into the scheme, in March 2011 the new coalition government announced that support for large-scale photovoltaic installations (greater than 50 kW) would be cut. This was in response to European speculators lining up to establish huge solar farms in the West Country, which would have absorbed disproportionate amounts of the fund.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_tariff#United_Kingdom


Britains-solar-energy-boom-is-built-on-unsustainable-foundations
With installed capacity nearly three times that projected by the last government when it launched the scheme 18 months ago, it all means that solar is burning through its budget at an unsustainable rate. The generous pot of £867m secured for the feed-in tariff scheme by the coalition last year will be completely devoured if we don't act now.

I still believe passionately that feed-in tariffs are essential. But there is a delicate balancing act to perform to avoid the boom and bust already experienced in countries such as Italy, Spain and France, fuelled by over-generous subsidy.The challenge we face is to use that public investment to obtain the widest possible deployment. I don't want a tariff that gives bumper returns to a lucky few but a tariff that incentivises sensible deployment, in the right place, on the right buildings in the greatest numbers.
http://www.eqmaglive.com/index.php?option=com_multicategories&view=article&id=4264:britains-solar-energy-boom-is-built-on-unsustainable-foundations-guardian-article-by-greg-barker&catid=97:europe&Itemid=159

 

[Flyfisher]

Well on that cheery note, I'm beginning to lose interest in saving the planet for future unmet and unknown generations - the sacrifices are just too unpalatable for most people. Lets just go out with a great party. I suggest a barbecue as the weather's going to be nice and warm I hear. 8)

That's the core of the issue. The green lobby has failed to engage the population because of their inability to describe an acceptable way forward. It's obvious that people will ignore predictions of doom and gloom, however well-founded, if the alternatives make their lives less comfortable and enjoyable. People continue to smoke, over-eat and under-exercise even though there is clear evidence of the life-shortening effects of such behaviour. Large sections of the global population are also seemingly quite comfortable to live amazingly luxurious and high-consumption lives (and I'm thinking here of almost everyone living in a 'western capitalist democracy', not just so-called fat-cats) in the full knowledge that billions of their fellow men and women are leading miserably deprived lives by comparison.

Given all of that, continuing to indulge in our great big party, especially when the bill won't arrive in our children's lifetime and probably not even in their children's lifetimes, seems pretty inevitable. So, keep calm, carry on and let's hope something will turn up. :wink:

 

[biffvernon]

I've no idea how that compares to other people?

Biff's numbers are interesting but you need to know the number/capacity of your respective pv panels to make a fair comparison.

Sorry, should have said: 3.96kWp

 

[biffvernon]

The green lobby has failed to engage the population because of their inability to describe an acceptable way forward.

Great, blame the 'green lobby' for the problem! We've spelled it out very clearly - go on burning all the fossil fuel and the human species goes extinct. Why should it be the 'green lobby's' responsibility to describe an acceptable way forward? Frankly, I think it's the people who do the damage who should take the responsibility for finding a solution. If they can't then the least they can do is stop adding to the problem.

Should we just give up and party? If you don't care about grandchildren, anybody's grandchildren, but only in having a good time yourself, then it might be the thing to do.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm blaming the green lobby for failing to engage the population in the debate, not the problem itself, and they've failed because they can offer no acceptable solutions so it's hardly surprising people are not interested in listening. And do you really expect the people doing the damage to come up with a solution? That would be like asking criminals how best to reduce crime.

The caring for anybody's grandchildren argument is also doomed to failure when most people in the affluent west (and the affluent people in the developing countries) don't seem to care about the plight of millions of children living today never mind those not yet born.

Perhaps if we could understand why millions of people can happily elevate cooking to an artform and watch 'Masterchef' and similar food pornography programmes on mainstream television while millions of children tonight are malnourished to the point where thousands of them won't wake up in the morning then we might gain the necessary insights into how to change people's behaviour.

Until then, simply repeating the same old message won't make a blind bit of difference. A different approach is needed.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Large sections of the global population are also seemingly quite comfortable to live amazingly luxurious and high-consumption lives (and I'm thinking here of almost everyone living in a 'western capitalist democracy', not just so-called fat-cats) in the full knowledge that billions of their fellow men and women are leading miserably deprived lives by comparison.

http://www.globalrichlist.com tells me that I'm lucky enough to be in the top half of one percent - and that the top 200 richest individuals have as much wealth as the bottom 2.5bn people. Let's hope they're investing their wealth in scientific research to save the 2.5bn from the rising waters, because human altruism is a fairly thin hope to cling to.

Given all of that, continuing to indulge in our great big party, especially when the bill won't arrive in our children's lifetime and probably not even in their children's lifetimes, seems pretty inevitable. So, keep calm, carry on and let's hope something will turn up. :wink:

Fingers crossed. The alternatives don't look too hopeful - and I don't see much evidence of the Chinese, Indians and others doing the decent necessary thing and forgoing economic development and enormous additional energy usage... :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

http://www.globalrichlist.com tells me that I'm lucky enough to be in the top half of one percent

Indeed. Which makes me smile when I see the 'occupy' protesters waving their 'We Are The 99%' banners. Er, no, not really. As you rightly point out, we are actually the 1% who are causing so many of the problems relating to climate change and resource depletion. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose but we're definitely in the 'fat cat' category when it comes to global wealth. Funny old world.

 

[biffvernon]

I'm blaming the green lobby for failing to engage the population in the debate, not the problem itself, and they've failed because they can offer no acceptable solutions so it's hardly surprising people are not interested in listening.

Perhaps there is no acceptable solution, at least not acceptable to those who wish to continue burning fossil fuels. Understand: there is no solution without an end to burning fossil fuels.

Time for a little poetry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9MRrrPGtedU

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Perhaps there is no acceptable solution, at least not acceptable to those who wish to continue burning fossil fuels. Understand: there is no solution without an end to burning fossil fuels.

Are you telling that to the Chinese and Indians Biff? That they can't use any more energy to fuel economic development? Or is it only us that has to adjust downwards?

 

[wobs]

Ok, those Germans are just showing off now. Not only has the nation announced plans to shut down all of its nuclear power plants

-Leading to an increase in carbon emissions:
http://theenergycollective.com/breakthroughinstitut/53690/analysis-nuclear-moratorium-germany-could-cause-spike-co2-emissions

"The moratorium could cause a spike in CO2 emissions as Germany turns to its other, more carbon-intensive sources to supply its energy demand. Already, the country has been engaged in a "dash for coal", building dozens of new coal plants in response to the perverse incentives and intense lobbying from the coal industries made possible by the European Emissions Trading Scheme. "

So the Greens in Germany have put their country at a pointless economic disadvantage with zero environmental benefit (in fact you could say it is actually worse, owing to the increased carbon emissions that will occur).
Go team!

And here is a run down of energy increases in Germany for 2010:
Petroleum: +1.3%
Natural gas: + 4.2%
Anthracite coal: + 15.4%
Brown coal: +0.2
Renewables: + 9.9%

http://notrickszone.com/2011/04/17/preachy-germanys-black-coal-consumption-skyrockets-15-4-in-2010-due-to-cold/

Although the Czechs are using this as an opportunity:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/08/czech-energy-nuclear-idUSL5E7K80H120110908
"A Czech draft policy paper seen by Reuters on Thursday proposes to build a string of new atomic plants in the central European country, in a stark contrast to a wide pullback from nuclear power following the Fukushima disaster in March.

The draft from the Industry Ministry said the country, an exporter of electricity to neighbouring Germany which announced a complete retreat from nuclear power after the March disaster in Japan, should boost reliance on nuclear to 80 percent of all energy needs by 2060. "

So if Germany simply increases its imports from the Czechs, we'll be ok.


And lets not forget the cost of widespread wind energy:
http://www.kpmg.com/uk/en/issuesandinsights/articlespublications/newsreleases/pages/low-nuclear-contribution-could-send-the-price-of-electricity-up-by-60-per-cent.aspx
"A mix of energy generation which has a low or no nuclear contribution could send the price of electricity generation in 2050 up from around £75/MW to as much as £120/MW, according to a report prepared by KPMG"

And an interesting study on offshore wind:
http://www.kpmg.com/Global/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/Documents/Offshore-wind-farms.pdf

Of course, I would like to see more offshore wind as well despite the cost. Not least because it could mean more jobs for Hull.

 

[biffvernon]

Perhaps there is no acceptable solution, at least not acceptable to those who wish to continue burning fossil fuels. Understand: there is no solution without an end to burning fossil fuels.

Are you telling that to the Chinese and Indians Biff? That they can't use any more energy to fuel economic development? Or is it only us that has to adjust downwards?

Everybody. What is it that you find so difficult to understand about there is no solution without an end to burning fossil fuels?

We are on track for a global warming of 3 or 4 degrees. That puts us in peril of runaway feedbacks whose end point is a climate such as is found on Venus. This is very bad for period plumbing involving lead as the surface temperature could approach lead's melting point. Denial of the science is not contributing to a solution.

Our best hope is that the effects of peak-oil cause a collapse of the financial system followed by the end of large scale manufacturing. If the global economy survives we will not only burn the easy oil but move on to tar sands, shale oil and the tight gas now being exploited through fracking. That will be game over.