Should I try to get my house listed before building works?

[JoceAndChris]

Anita, the new roof sounds gorgeous! What a lovely story. I appreciate what you say about how application could be frustratingly slow, but to be honest with you all we might achieve this summer is repairing boundaries and decorating the bedroom, so there is no rush.

Flyfisher, I take your point, but surely any required records of late 20th/ 21st century building methods or monstrosities would be better left on a Barratt box or even a 50's semi?

Why should beautiful, and rare buildings have to suffer such treatment? The medieval house I speak of was absolutely lovely apart from the fact the middle had been knocked out and this carbuncle stuck on, so when you sat in the garden that was what you faced. And the house didn't sell.

The Georgians had more beauty and taste in their little fingers than most modern developers I'm sorry to say. We have tacky quick fix solutions and cheaply sourced materials in place of real craftsmanship and expensive, difficult to come by goods. It's the same with clothes: a Georgian lady might have only had two dresses but the work and cost of them would have blown anything we make today out of the window. Your Georgian makeover sounds lovely, even if it doesn't quite match. Whereas I can't believe anyone will LIKE plastic conservatories, laminate floors or stone cladding in 200 years' time - they'll look at pictures and raise a quizzical eyebrow,as we do when confronted by white lead paint make-up, powdered wigs, farthingales, or even avocado bathroom suites!

 

[Flyfisher]

I think we're discussing two different things here; taste/fashion and craftsmanship. Plastic conservatories, windows and doors and laminate floors and stone cladding are examples of the former and while it would be nice to think they are just a passing fad, I'm not entirely convinced they'll be unanimously frowned upon in 200 years time. Some people clearly like these things now and I don't see why that will change in the future. Unfortunately.

Craftsmanship is, I think, a different matter. I don't agree that past craftsmen were better than modern ones, although they may perhaps have been more affordable. I'm also sure there were tacky quick-fit solutions and cheap materials in the past but they didn't stand the test of time, much like modern examples won't, so we're not so aware of them. Where are all the hovels that the peasants lived in? Or their clothes? Or the badly-built houses - for they must have existed one upon a time. Our general view of history is often blinkered by self-selecting high-quality artifacts that have naturally stood the test of time.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I agree with what you say in the main, particularly your last sentence. We don't see much of the shoddy workmanship/poor quality goods that have rotted away, and you only have to take a wander around a huge antiques/junk centre such as Hemswell to think "just because it's old, it ain't necessarily good".

You can make a distinction between taste and craftsmanship if you like, but if you take something valued as beautiful or tasteful in our society it is often expensive and beautifully crafted too.

What bothers me about today's craftsmanship is not really that knowledge, skills or materials are lacking but that these things do not seem to be valued as they once were. I could pull out dozens of literary quotes at this point, but I won't.

But you know what I mean about our throw-away society that values quantity over quality, fashion over taste, cheapness over craftsmanship. I don't believe it was always the case, in fact, I'm sure of it. People had to value what they owned because they couldn't easily get a replacement: so, items had to last longer than they do today. And people had to make things themselves, because if they didn't they went without.

Nowadays handskills are snobbily looked down on in our schools and everything is mass produced.

 

[Penners]

Joce - apologies if the following is already well-known to you and engraved on your heart.

If at least one of your motivations for seeking a listing is to save VAT, then you need to decide how much of your work you'll be handing over to a VAT registered builder.

If you DIY the work, you'll save nothing at all on VAT - not a penny. HMRC will not refund the VAT that you'll pay on materials, nor will you be able to buy those materials without paying VAT. Remember, too, that even if you have a VAT-registered builder do the work, he can only zero-rate you on alterations - not on repairs.

Dumb, eh? :roll:

But that's the way it works.

 

[Hatster]

I could pull out dozens of literary quotes at this point, but I won't.

Go on, Joce, you know you want to.

 

[JoceAndChris]

No, I really will be banned, along with you for wanting double glazing. :wink:

Penners! Where've you been?

My thoughts about VAT were rather vague and woolly so I'm glad you've clarified that for me.

It's a bit disappointing but as most of the work will be DIY, excepting the roof and removal of cement render, there would be little to claim anyway.

I also hold out little hope for any kind of grant but it's worth a try.

I think the main motivation for wanting listing is that that it feels like the right thing to do. If we lost Beacon Cottage during this recession it would become very vulnerable. Last year a property developer wanted to buy it and the land and build a few houses in the garden. Thank God the previous owner held out against him and we got it.

Of course talk of losing the house is too negative. It's mine, forever. And the bunnies can keep the garden.

 

[Penners]

It's a bit disappointing but as most of the work will be DIY, excepting the roof and removal of cement render, there would be little to claim anyway.

I bet you won't say that a few years down the line, when you tot up what you've spent on materials.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I'm sure you're right, but a good pair of rose-tinted glasses and a very poor mind for maths should ease the pain.

 

[Penners]

Sounds like an exceedingly dangerous combination to me. :wink:

 

[Jon Maine]

I'm sure you're right, but a good pair of rose-tinted glasses and a very poor mind for maths should ease the pain.

What about the chablis or orvieto, that tends to help too.....

 

[Flyfisher]

You can make a distinction between taste and craftsmanship if you like, but if you take something valued as beautiful or tasteful in our society it is often expensive and beautifully crafted too.

And, conversely, some things are valued just because they are expensive. Why are diamonds more 'tasteful' than zircon (or whatever it's called) imitations when it's not possible to tell the difference without really close examination?

What bothers me about today's craftsmanship is not really that knowledge, skills or materials are lacking but that these things do not seem to be valued as they once were.

I agree, and I wonder if this is because of industrialisation, which gives us very good quality goods relatively cheaply, has made the craftsman too expensive for all but a small percentage of people. Why buy a hand-made car (with all its attendant quality problems!) for £100k when, frankly, a better quality and more reliable car can be bought for £20k? (and not forgetting that there is an incredible amount of expertise and craftsmanship that goes into the design of a mass-produced car as well as the factory process that makes them).

Actually, I can give a better example. Having done a fair bit of roof repairs over the past couple of years I'd say that hand-crafted pantiles are the work of the devil. They are not consistent in shape and they don't fit together all that well. For roof tiles, absolute uniformity is the key and modern, machine-made roof tiles beat the hand-made item every time.

But you know what I mean about our throw-away society that values quantity over quality, fashion over taste, cheapness over craftsmanship. I don't believe it was always the case, in fact, I'm sure of it. People had to value what they owned because they couldn't easily get a replacement: so, items had to last longer than they do today. And people had to make things themselves, because if they didn't they went without.

I do agree with you about today's 'throw-away' society, but it's not a fair comparison with pre-industrial times because today we have choices that didn't exist back then. I'm sure it's possible to buy a hand-crafted teaspoon today and it would very likely be quite expensive and you'd quite rightly look after it, just as you would have done 300 years ago. But why bother when perfectly serviceable teaspoons can now be punched out in their millions for a few pence? - an option that wasn't available in days of yore. Henry VIII and his fellow noblemen would undoubtedly still have chosen expensive hand-crafted cutlery but the vast majority of people would have chosen the mass-produced and cheaper item - as they do now - except they didn't have that choice.

I'm suspect the 'good old days' were only good if you had plenty of money. Otherwise they would have been pretty hellish by comparison with today's privileged times - even if you had craft skills.

 

[Flyfisher]

HMRC will not refund the VAT . . .

Yes, just to emphasise this important point, certain works to listed buildings may be VAT-exempt but Penners is absolutely right that you can't claim back any VAT already paid. Therefore it is vital to discuss VAT with your builders and other contractors before they start any work, to ensure that they are comfortable not to include VAT on their invoice.

In my experience, providing them with a copy of the Listed Building Consent should be sufficient. It effectively proves that the works are alterations (because you don't need LBC for repairs) - and thus VAT-exempt - and it gives the contractor something to keep their accountant happy in case of a tax audit.

 

[JoceAndChris]

8)

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Did a servant question their allotted place in life, anchored into a religious belief system with far stronger ideas of duty and class than we can ever imagine- I doubt it. (all right, the revolutionaries did, but they were a minority)

But a minority big enough for their many and varied few years permanently to change the course of world history.

Hello Mr Drift

 

[JoceAndChris]

8)

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Whether the minority did or did not change the course of history will not be allowed to impinge on my point that people knew how to be happy in days gone by, as well as they knew suffering. All right, maybe they were a bit less happy than nowadays but I can't and won't believe life was one long tortured torment, and that everyone yearned for empowerment, the vote, emancipation, an end to the death penalty etc etc.

Yes, and I'm extremely jealous of you Mr Hughes- Pinot Grigio on a Monday indeed! Between you and Jon it's a wonder I preserve any wine free nights at all!

Um, it was Tuesday, actually (don't tell me you counry mouses had such a good time on Sunday night you slept through the next 24 hours?)

Anyway, here's some nostalgie from when the world was a happier place, and we all knew ours :wink: :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcyzAIkMwrg

 

[JoceAndChris]

I watched it today from your blog (which is completely great, by the way), I mean yesterday- the days arerather confusing aren't they?

And it is so so lovely, that was my grandparents' life, and my grandmother had no complaints about it, only nostalgia. (Admittedly she was in her eighties when she talked about her early life so perhaps had forgotten all the bad bits).

I'm looking forwards very much to seeing the others.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I watched it today from your blog (which is completely great, by the way), I mean yesterday- the days arerather confusing aren't they?

My blog? I've heard it's B-- K------'s , or possibly J--- P------'s. Walls have ears.

 

[JoceAndChris]

:?

Well that'll keep us all guessing.

 

[Flyfisher]

Joce, I entirely agree it's a big subject and we won't do it justice here, but it's an interesting digression.

You only have to spend time in India to see how this dogged belief in a god-given, pre-destined society enables people to endure suffering that you and I can't even bear to think about. And that they're still perfectly capable of laughing and loving throughout.

You're quite right, but the forebearance to 'endure suffering' is surely not a good indicator of quality of life. It's certainly testament to the human spirit, but I'd still prefer my current lifestyle rather than endure suffering with a stiff upper lip. As for 'dogged belief', perhaps that's a necessary survival mechanism when times are so tough, hence its apparently declining importance today (but we probably shouldn't drift into religion - far too big a digression!).

There's a famous experiment by someone I forget involving monkeys restrained in electric chairs. A light comes on and a few seconds later both monkeys receive a mild electric shock. Both monkeys have buttons in front of them and, with the appropriate presses, one of the monkeys can prevent the shock. The monkey that can prevent the shock ends up being highly stressed and depressed, the monkey that just has to endure the shocks and can do nothing about them remains both physically and psychologically healthier. Which one has the better life? (apart from the obvious answer of 'neither' because they're both locked up in a laboratory).