Settle an argument.....

[KayW]

to show the external timber frame or not to show the frame that is the question?

Our 15C (have now been told its a bit older than we orginally thought) timber frame cottage is currently covered in cement render but after a lot of work we have managed to reveal all the timbers on the inside. Our plan was to remove the render, insulate from the outside and re render in lime. It would look like a cottage on the outside but a wonderful tudor timber framed house on the inside. Most of the infills of wattles and daub on the front have been removed over the years and are simply lathe and plaster however the gap of about 100mm is probably not large enough to insulate imbetween the timbers and show them both internally and externally.

We discussed this with an local timber frame expert and agreed with him that it was probably best for the frame to be protected by a render and insulation as a first defence from the weather and therefore it was best to show them internally only.

The frame is in good order but in places where windows have been added a bit of a hotch potch of really old timbers (500 yrs) and some fairly old (1-200 yrs). It orignally had a jetty across two thirds of the front and around one side. This was removed and the lower wall pushed out a long time ago we assume for more space. We think they reused the timbers from the jetty to reform the new lower wall

Had made the decision and all was going ahead.

In walks my father today to tell me what a huge mistake I was making by not showing the frame on the outside and that I was missing a huge opportunity to make it a proper tudor house from the outside. Also we should reinstate the jetty. After my all very careful thought I am now in turmoil once again.

Any comments would be greatfully received as feel like banging my head against a wall several times..... :roll:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Kay - I have no idea. Aesthetically it would be nice to see the original frame from the outside. Conservation-wise others on here are much more knowledgeable about the protection/damage issues that exposure raises.

My reason for posting is to ask if you have any pics to post - sounds a very interesting property.

 

[DaveBrigg]

Is it listed?

 

[KayW]

No not listed.

Family Wiggs - will add some photos soon but as above trying to keep it a bit under the radar. Have been digging up those concrete floors for the last week and a bit knackered. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Flyfisher]

Difficult choices. There's original and there's accumulated history. Our timber-framed (1550) house is currently rendered and pantiled but was (probably) exposed timbers and thatched originally. At some time it was given a Georgian 'makeover' and a lot of the original timbers were boxed-in (internally) and the internal walls in the main rooms were lined with another oak frame over which lath-and-plaster was applied - a sort of dry-lining I suppose. During this makeover most of the original windows were rendered over and new sash windows were installed, which involved cutting out some of the original oak frame in places. Also, the original jetty was completely rendered over, presumably so as not to 'spoil' the nice new Georgian facade. Later on, some of the original window frames and the jetty were re-exposed.

So, really, there's no practical way of going back to the 'original' building without removing a lot of historial changes and materials. The house only exists in its present state because of all the changes over the years; they are as much a part of its 'original' history as the original build.

 

[Essex]

We removed external cement render on our 14-15C timber frame, and exposed some of the timber framing, with approval of CO. (it was originally exposed, in her opinion). Main issue is driving rain coming in the sides of some of the lime rendered daub and wattle panels, which has been resolved (partially, still monitoring) by limewashing the frame.

 

[chuckey]

As I see it the two options are :- expose the external frame and have huge heating bills and a house people will oggle at. Or put on 4" of rigid foam insulation, stainless steel mesh and render it and have minimal heating bills and people will walk right by. If you jetty out the top storey this would cost as much as the insulation and render. The exposed wooden frame will also require more maintainance the the render option. So are you an exhibitionist or a miser?
Miser Frank

 

[Nemesis]

Rigid foam insulation?

Jetty out the top storey? Isn't that how the place was built anyhow?

 

[Penners]

KayW - a hard-and-fast answer to your question is difficult, unless you get an expert to come and have a look at your timber frame.

Some houses had very high quality oak frames, which were designed to be exposed outside, although even these would probably have had the exposed oak limewashed.

But probably the majority of timber frames were not designed to be externally exposed. Most people couldn't afford the high quality oak necessary to survive such exposure indefinitely (it had to be exclusively heartwood - the most expensive kind).

As your house is (I presume) a simple cottage, then the likelihood is that external exposure was never intended.

You could examine the outside surfaces of the timbers, to see whether you can see signs of laths having been nailed on, (which could confirm external rendering), or of limewashing, (which could confirm external exposure) but even this wouldn't necessarily be unequivocal confirmation, because it might have been done at any time during the last 600 years.

External lime rendering won't hurt your house, even if the frame was originally designed to be exposed, whereas exposing a frame that was not constructed with this in mind could be deleterious in the long-term. So the safe route to go is to render.

Here's a building that was designed to have its frame exposed (note the limewashing). It's Lavenham Guildhall:

And here's one (a few yards from the one above) that is sadly deteriorating because it has been incorrectly exposed:

 

[KayW]

Thank you everyone for all your comments.

Family Wiggs - piccies to follow - love your staircase - dearly want one!!! Hope budget can stretch to it - did you get a local craftman to make it to a specific design you chose?

Flyfisher/Penners/Essex - I totally agree that reinstating the jetty would be just reversing an alteration that probably happended several hundred years ago - the house has been amended many times over the years and it should be a sum of those historic changes. At least in its current state you can see where the orginal corner post was and beams to hold the jetty as the joints remain and are much in evidence. This for me I have decided would be undoing too much history. So will keep as it is.

The house was made into two cottages many years ago and looks as you say like a simple cottage with its cement render jacket. However I am told by a local specicialist the quality of the frame and the fact that it had a jetty suggest it was actually quite a high status house originally. Over the years it was probably downgraded to farm labourers cottages and the inside was just covered over the years. A previous occupier (now in her eighties) has told me it was once a "black and white" house with exposed timbers so we may find they are covered in black paint underneath the render. The inside of the timbers are all limewashed. When I can go and buy some lime mortar I will have to take a patch render off to have a look at the state of the timbers now.

Other then the conservation of the timbers the other issue is how attractive it will look once uncovered - new windows have been added at the front and extra timbers to support these. These are much newer and not such good quality. Also where the jetty was removed it has not been done in the prettiest manner. It maybe better to keep it all hidden under new render and make the most of the interior.

Frank I may be coming round to being a miser - I like the thought of people walking by leaving me and may family to enjoy the inside and surprise any visitors!

Essex - the driving rain is a concern - this is I think one of the main reasons I would render rather then expose. Do not want to have finshed all my lime plastering inside to have water leaking in later. Glad the limewashing is helping. Hope that the insulation and render would stop this happening.

As you can see am confused as ever - will take all your comment on board and hopefully come to the right decision in the end.

Many thanks

K

 

[Nemesis]

Enlighten me - how was the jetty removed?

It was the way these buildings were constructed and served a useful engineering purpose...

 

[KayW]

Sorry 'removed' not the right term .... "covered over?????"

They took down the posts on the ground floor and moved them outwards in line with the upstairs outer wall. Adding an additional beam which they were jointed in to.Thus resulting in extra space downstairs. Not very technically minded I am afraid.

 

[Nemesis]

Mmmmmm.

This might be of interest:

http://environment.uwe.ac.uk/video/history/section2.htm

 

[KayW]

Picces as promised...

 

[KayW]

and a few more

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Thank you everyone for all your comments.

Family Wiggs - piccies to follow - love your staircase - dearly want one!!! Hope budget can stretch to it - did you get a local craftman to make it to a specific design you chose?

Kay - I would love to say I did it myself, but I still haven't made the doorframes I posted about a couple of months ago!

The design was by a local chap called Tim Nicholson who owns http://www.period-property-solutions.co.uk and has done the skilled work on my place. His sidekick and general carpentry whizzkid is Chris Jones - who has done most of the staircase. They are both real craftsmen, highly recommended by us and real perfectionists.

And they love period property.

Robin

 

[Anne]

Beautiful House

 

[Penners]

It looks as though you definitely have the substance of a high quality frame, there. And judging by what looks like a dragon beam in the picture where the corner post of jetty was it may have been jettied on two sides. Are those both external walls?

As Nemesis has hinted above, jettying was used more for engineering reasons than for upstairs space creation. The ground floor ceiling joists were generally laid on their wider face, rather than their narrower one, and so tended to be rather flexible. The cantilever effect of the jettying stiffened them up.

I shouldn't let yourself be too influenced by the elderly lady's comment about it being a "black-and-white" house, with externally exposed timbers. That's no indication of how the house was originally designed. In years gone by this external frame exposure was often done to make cottages look "chocolate boxey", with no regard for the long-term effect on the frame.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Lovely house, brought a tear to my eye, Penners and Moo will know what I mean.

Perhaps another of looking at your dilemma would be to protect the outside timbers, to be sure that they will stay in a stable condition for posterity, and enjoy the discovery of the internal timbers, they will be good forever with the proper care that you clearly want to give them.

Good Luck

 

[KayW]

Thank you Jocelyn - although I am sorry it brought a tear to your eye.

I think you are right and have decided to insulate and render on the outside and protect the frame. The timbers will be happily displayed on the inside for me and my family to enjoy.


K