Sagging floor/?lintel issue

[00rebsta]

Hi all,

So I’m wondering which job we should prioritise next on our 1930s semi since we sorted out all the external wall stuff with crack stitching and was told we don’t need to re render either. Bonus.

Upstairs the floors sag in the middle in both the bedrooms and the old plaster is absolutely diabolical. It’s coming away from the wall. There was a load bearing wall removed below on the ground floor and there’s a query as to whether the beam was put in properly as well it just doesn’t look right. I’m thinking I’ll need a new beam with piers building and all sorts. An SE wants 600 quid to inspect it. Not sure if that includes the calcs.
If I replace the beam how much would it cost? The span must be around 4m. And piers would also need building im guessing too.
At the time the beam is fixed would the floor then likely need fixing depending which way everything runs with the joists?
I’ve never actually inspected it properly so I’m not certain which way they are.
We were told on the structural report when we bought the house that there was two steel beams in but nothing else was said. I presume they mean bolted together or something.
Hmm basically wondering whether it’s a good idea to start what feels like such a big messy job or not. I would dread what they’d find.

 

[LadyArowana]

Hmm basically wondering whether it’s a good idea to start what feels like such a big messy job or not. I would dread what they’d find.

I can’t help with answers unfortunately, but in your circumstances I would absolutely want to get to the bottom of whether there really was a structural issue which needed to be resolved or not. I can sympathise with not wanting to open a can of worms as we opted not to open up and complete restore a large fireplace which had once held a kitchen range, but that wasn’t really causing any really bad issues we could see.

 

[a twig]

Yep, get stuck in and sort it out one way or the other

 

[Stevers]

A photo would be useful, but reducing the width of the opening might provide enough extra support for the existing beams to be sufficient. It can add context and interest to a living space to do this. We did open up two rooms with a relatively modest opening, but ended up blocking it back in with a door in the stud partition. This has meant that the rear of our living room can now double as a ground floor bedroom for our elderly mothers who can no longer use stairs. The rest of the time it's an easy to heat 'snug' further away from what can be a busy road at times. Our front living room is 15' x 12' so a reasonable size in its own right.

[Edit] If the floors are sagging in the middle rather than over the beam, it could be that the cross bracing between the joists is missing or been compromised - plumbers don't you love 'em! It's important to know if the joists run into the wall with the beam so that beam is carrying the floor load as well as the wall and potentially bits of roof above. If this is the case, the joists can act as pins to support the wall whilst you do the repairs under, but if the beam has sagged that much, the cracks in the wall above should be really obvious.

 

[Cubist]

Do you know what the dimensions of the, presumably timber, beam are? A four metre span is not all that unusual but even if in good condition some point-load deflection is to be expected. Is there any evidence of recent movement of the beam, resulting in cracks in the plaster or decay of any kind to the timber. Stevers makes an excellent point about introducing some additional support under the span to limit future problems and perhaps improve the visual aspects of the rooms.

Regarding costs; a four metre steel RSJ would only cost around a hundred pounds but a suitable timber beam of that size, assuming a hardwood, could be several hundreds. The big costs come from the work needed and those could, if you use a professional, stretch to 2-3 thousand very easily.

Best I think to verify the physical condition of the extant beam and perhaps consider Steve's advice as a long term solution - its certain at least to be less costly.

 

[malcolm]

Photos are always worthwhile. It might be sensible to take a look at the beam yourself before committing to thousands of pounds of work. Beams are normally put in to support the wall above and if the wall shows no sign of movement it might not be the beam that is the trouble.

It ought to be possible to pull a floorboard up and see if it's steel or wood. It could also be the problem is in the mounting of the existing floors to the new beam. Structural engineer will be a waste of money if he can't see what the structure is, and once you see what the structure is you'll likely see the problem yourself.

 

[00rebsta]

A photo would be useful, but reducing the width of the opening might provide enough extra support for the existing beams to be sufficient. It can add context and interest to a living space to do this. We did open up two rooms with a relatively modest opening, but ended up blocking it back in with a door in the stud partition. This has meant that the rear of our living room can now double as a ground floor bedroom for our elderly mothers who can no longer use stairs. The rest of the time it's an easy to heat 'snug' further away from what can be a busy road at times. Our front living room is 15' x 12' so a reasonable size in its own right.

[Edit] If the floors are sagging in the middle rather than over the beam, it could be that the cross bracing between the joists is missing or been compromised - plumbers don't you love 'em! It's important to know if the joists run into the wall with the beam so that beam is carrying the floor load as well as the wall and potentially bits of roof above. If this is the case, the joists can act as pins to support the wall whilst you do the repairs under, but if the beam has sagged that much, the cracks in the wall above should be really obvious.

yeah we’ve thought about splitting the room back into two a bit via creating more like an archway shape/door. Next door have had the same thing done like ours but theirs has a small pier at one end and it appears different, its thinner and hangs down a lot more from the ceiling, which is why ours I think is wrong. Neighbour just said hers had no building regs either and that it had been done before they bought the house. So like ours really.
Basically I think some cowboy has at some point day dot ago bodged it to try and get it in the ceiling as much as possible. Because it looks wide but not too deep or ‘boxy’. To me it just looks like the beam is in the wrong way around and chucked directly onto the single skin brick walls. God knows why its appearance was never really mentioned (or the sagging floors) in the report.
What worries me more is what’s the reason for such a bodge. If Its not simple trying to get it in the ceiling then what is it. If I start taking stuff down am I going to find some bizarre reason.
A builder we had over was gunna come back with his SE that he uses but they want 600 quid to basically put a hole in it and have a look so I never got back to them.. Not sure if the calcs were in that price. I’m gunna just have a look myself I think and see if there’s any clues. Could I just put a hole in it and use an endoscope camera thingy.
We kind of need another room really anyway so in a way I don’t mind putting it right if it solves that issue too. But. We was quoted over 4k from a different builder to have a stud wall in below it and a door moved etc. but I figure a stud wall won’t do anything so I’d rather maybe just have the beam sorted/brick piers/wall put back in. Like you say it adds a nice dimension to space I think. But 4k just seemed dear to simply stud There’s too much open plan hysteria these days. Which I don’t get because it takes forever to heat.

 

[00rebsta]

There’s deffo been a cowboy around at some point in the past tho aswell cause our neighbour said they had to take the small extension down that had been stood there years because of some huge gaping gap they found or something. Makes you wonder if it was the same one

 

[00rebsta]

 

[Stevers]

Narrowing the opening perhaps not such a great option then! On the face of it that's a neat job with the picture rails carried through and no visible cracks or anything. In fact it could have been built like that. The near ceiling looks much worse than the far ceiling and the visible defects suggest to me that the joists are side to side not bearing on the beam. If a wall was removed where would the door to the far room have been? If it's a row of similar houses, do you know what your neighbours have?

 

[Stevers]

Which way do the floor boards upstairs run for a start? It's not impossible that the wall above is stud work and therefore no weight to it - are there cracks in the wall above? Is there a second chimney breast suggesting that these were once separate rooms. Any evidence that the picture rail has been messed around with?

 

[00rebsta]

I’m not sure on where the original doors would have been. I’ll have to compare to any on the street that have sold recently on Rightmove or something. A lot have been altered and extended over the years though. They were definitely two separate rooms and chimney breast has been removed in this rear ‘room’. It’s still intact on neighbours side.
The neighbours have a double door the other side of their beam compared to ours. So nearer my picture frames. If that makes sense. I just know it’s all definitely been done a long time. There was a horrible 80s single pane glass door still in the house. We swiftly took that out!
I’m gunna buy a scope camera and put a hole in it and see what I can see. I might make a mess of taking up some of the laminate and a floorboard. Upstairs in our bedroom there are cracks to that wall but the plasters really old and coming away from the wall so it’s hard to tell if it’s cracked due to the beam or for just being old. It feels loose. I have pushed it in and back again an awful a lot of times so I may have created those cracks from doing that aswell. It’s got nasty anaglypta wallpaper on that needs to go. You can hear how crumbley the plaster isA lot of the old plaster we have found to be loose in other parts. ilWe had my sons bedroom replastered three years ago (there was a silly built in warrrobe that needed to come out so we ended up replastering if the whole room for that reason) and there’s no cracking to the wall above the beam there. Would it def have cracked by now in the middle or something? It was boarded so I wasn’t sure if it would have or not? The wall is def brick as I remember it from when his room was replastered. I just can’t remember if any of the brick wall itself was cracked. we hadn’t moved properly into the house at that point so wasn’t there all the time to oversee it. But I remember seeing it was a brick wall. I’ll have to see if I can dig outany pics of that room during the works. I think I took the odd one but may not have caught all of the wall or anything. I remember there was a floorboard already taken up in his room, I’m kicking myself now I never looked then! But I never thought about it really at that time.

 

[00rebsta]

Hi all, just a quick question. Do joists run in the opposite direction of floorboards?
I’m pretty sure the joists do run into the beam. Going to go back and find an old photo of the rooms when they didn’t have any laminate down

 

[malcolm]

Hi all, just a quick question. Do joists run in the opposite direction of floorboards?
I’m pretty sure the joists do run into the beam. Going to go back and find an old photo of the rooms when they didn’t have any laminate down

Yes, always the joists are 90 degrees from the floorboards.

 

[Cubist]

I’m pretty sure the joists do run into the beam. Going to go back and find an old photo of the rooms when they didn’t have any laminate down

You cannot rely on the laminate covering to guide the decision regarding the joist layout - ithe laminate may have been laid at right angles to the floorboards for a variety of good reasons and thus be parallel to the joists.

To be sure you need to know the lay direction of the floors beneath the laminate. It's also worth remembering that ceiling light fittings in the rooms below will usually have been fixed to the underside of a joist and removing the ceiling rose can help to identify that joists lay direction. Another guide is the joist pattern in the loft space, if any, as the convention is that these will be the same as those for the floors below.

 

[00rebsta]

Ah no, I know, my sons bedroom had no flooring when we moved in. Just the floorboards on show. The joists must go into the beam as the floorboards run across the room in the other direction towards where the chimney breast used to be. So I assume our bedroom must also be the same. I still need to look yet but I found a photo. Joists definitely go into that beam. So god knows how they are attached to it. Can’t wait to have a look and see what’s going on.
Sometimes I wished I bought a new build. But then again a lot of those are built terrible. Seen some terrible brickwork. Too many crooked inspectors signing off houses that shouldn’t have been signed off. And many have no character.
It’s all a bit of a lottery this house ownership thing.

 

[00rebsta]

You cannot rely on the laminate covering to guide the decision regarding the joist layout - ithe laminate may have been laid at right angles to the floorboards for a variety of good reasons and thus be parallel to the joists.

To be sure you need to know the lay direction of the floors beneath the laminate. It's also worth remembering that ceiling light fittings in the rooms below will usually have been fixed to the underside of a joist and removing the ceiling rose can help to identify that joists lay direction. Another guide is the joist pattern in the loft space, if any, as the convention is that these will be the same as those for the floors below.

Ahhh thanks I will also have a look in the loft to confirm! I just honestly can’t imagine what’s been done if it is in the wrong way around. Honestly. People !!

 

[a twig]

4 house moves ticked off so far, and buyer’s cynicism has definitely kicked in - our latest “in good order with nothing needing doing” according to the seller - we are currently £20k in on fixing wiring, plumbing, major asbestos removal etc.

After our third purchase we gave up on surveyors etc and bought our current place expecting to find a house of horrors so just made sure we had a significant contingency for the inevitable surprises.

 

[00rebsta]

Yeah I just figure you can’t win no matter what you do to be honest. Woah really that’s crazy! They all have their issues definitely. My parents house is a 1970s box. So despite being solid I wouldn’t like to live in a rabbit hutch either.

I’ve learnt that definitely that it’s all very hit and miss. I wasn’t going to have a survey at first because theough our naivety we had pulled out of two previous houses due to too much work showing up on surveys. Strictly speaking I didn’t want the first two anyway.
I only had one done in the end with this one was because of all the alterations. I mainly wanted the house due to its location. Good area, best school in town, nice neighbours, it’s quiet. The bigger rooms were a bonus. So I was always willing to fix any problems. It’s just a bit of a task being an old house. It won’t ever end I don’t think. But I don’t mind taking time over it even if it’s years or moving out in the process etc.

 

[Cubist]

It won’t ever end I don’t think. But I don’t mind taking time over it even if it’s years or moving out in the process etc.

It only works that way if you're a complete slacker. The equation works the other way and ultimately you end up moving into a smaller box - but not on a voluntary basis.