biffvernon
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Are you sure? The best conspiracy theories involve own flag attacks.Penners said:
Just what sort of building was it?
- Thread starter charlie-ia
- Start date
Just what sort of building was it?
chuckey
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Hi P. , I imagine that there are say 12 joists that have sheared of at the wall all held togather by floor boards and topped with 2 tons of rubbish. The reason that the whole thing is not flat, is that underneath the joists is the one beam in the centre running at right angle, one end having sheared the other trying to lever its self out of the wall. If you cut the wall end of the beam, the "floor" will just drop flat, beceause as proven the ends of the joist are rotten.
Trying to jack it up will result in the ends of the floor boards catching on the wall and becoming stuck.
Unloading the rubbish would be a good move but it is clearly dangerous to wander about on top of such a structure.
If the situation is as I see it, one way to attempt to clear it would be:- 1, prop up the big beam at its high end (nail prop on). 2, With a sabre saw ( from underneath) cut through the floor boards just down from the top joist. You will now have a joist with bits of floorboard nailed to it wobbling on the big beam. 3, lever of joist and cut it up enough to extract it. Repeat for all the joists, when the rubbish is getatable, remove it.
Until you get to the last joist, it will have kept the beam centralised and your prop will have kept the high end in the "correct" position. Now with a rope slung over a suitable truss, lift the low end of the beam up and cut it between the prop and the wall, should come down with a bang, stand clear!
My barn is almost as bad, but I have spent some time patching to preserve it long enough for a permanent cure.
Frank
Trying to jack it up will result in the ends of the floor boards catching on the wall and becoming stuck.
Unloading the rubbish would be a good move but it is clearly dangerous to wander about on top of such a structure.
If the situation is as I see it, one way to attempt to clear it would be:- 1, prop up the big beam at its high end (nail prop on). 2, With a sabre saw ( from underneath) cut through the floor boards just down from the top joist. You will now have a joist with bits of floorboard nailed to it wobbling on the big beam. 3, lever of joist and cut it up enough to extract it. Repeat for all the joists, when the rubbish is getatable, remove it.
Until you get to the last joist, it will have kept the beam centralised and your prop will have kept the high end in the "correct" position. Now with a rope slung over a suitable truss, lift the low end of the beam up and cut it between the prop and the wall, should come down with a bang, stand clear!
My barn is almost as bad, but I have spent some time patching to preserve it long enough for a permanent cure.
Frank
Andrew Bodenham
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Presumably there is some sort of access to the second floor, either external (window / door) or internal (staircase). This could be your starting point.
I think my strategy would be to create a breach through the floor by cutting through the boards between the joists. Ideally start with the non-collapsed end, and if necessary provide support from below with acrows or temporary timbering.
Once you can get through your newly created hatch you'll be able to start retrieving the junk within reach, and assessing the condition of the floorboards and joists.
Then it's just a case of cutting through the boards and removing them a bay at a time, followed by removal of the joists. A reciprocating saw or similar would speed things up. Move the props along as you go.
Any chance of a picture? Which bit of Lancs are you in?
I think my strategy would be to create a breach through the floor by cutting through the boards between the joists. Ideally start with the non-collapsed end, and if necessary provide support from below with acrows or temporary timbering.
Once you can get through your newly created hatch you'll be able to start retrieving the junk within reach, and assessing the condition of the floorboards and joists.
Then it's just a case of cutting through the boards and removing them a bay at a time, followed by removal of the joists. A reciprocating saw or similar would speed things up. Move the props along as you go.
Any chance of a picture? Which bit of Lancs are you in?
Geoff Flegg
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Just whatever you do, make sure it's safe. I've a friend who injured himself quite nastily, requiring 2 operations on his arm, after going through a floor. Admittedly he was a numpty - it was his own fault entirely!
Doing tasks that you've never done before to your house is half the fun, and you'll get loads of good advice on here, but you've got to balance your skills, knowledge and confidence against the consequences should it go wrong, which in this case could be very severe. Only you can make that call.
If you are going to attempt it, please try to do it from above, and make sure that if the floor collapses you don't go with it - either because you're standing on an independent structure such as scaffolding, or because you're wearing a harness attached to something very solid. Screwfix
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=101571&ts=61065
sell fall arrest systems. If any of the walls look at all iffy at the moment, you've got to bear in mind what effect removing the floor may have.
Why not get a builder or demolition contractor out to give you a quote? You may find it's not that expensive, especially if you're willing to do the "clean up" once the floor is down, or you may pick up some tips to do it yourself.
Doing tasks that you've never done before to your house is half the fun, and you'll get loads of good advice on here, but you've got to balance your skills, knowledge and confidence against the consequences should it go wrong, which in this case could be very severe. Only you can make that call.
If you are going to attempt it, please try to do it from above, and make sure that if the floor collapses you don't go with it - either because you're standing on an independent structure such as scaffolding, or because you're wearing a harness attached to something very solid. Screwfix
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=101571&ts=61065
sell fall arrest systems. If any of the walls look at all iffy at the moment, you've got to bear in mind what effect removing the floor may have.
Why not get a builder or demolition contractor out to give you a quote? You may find it's not that expensive, especially if you're willing to do the "clean up" once the floor is down, or you may pick up some tips to do it yourself.
charlie-ia said:
why? Adding wood to a structure to stop it being able to move in any direction is a fairly basic skill. Staying above and off the dodgy woodwork until its well secured is also not rocket science.
Any scaff would either be built from the ground upwards, or less likely be built out from the walls.
I cant imagine any possible reason to do that - unless its even more rotten.
why not?
You certainly need to be aware of the dangers and make sure you dont incur them. But as long as you do so all is well.
1. Risk of woodwork and/or goods collapsing onto you
2. Risk of falling beams acting as levers where the ends enterthe walls, lifting and breaking the wall. This must be avoided.
3. Risk of free falling beam hitting ground at one end and the other end scraping down and pushing out a wall.
For work like that I'd keep an observer present outside the building.
Always the easy option, but you dont learn much, dont gain any confidence or skills, and wind up poor.
NT
charlie-ia
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NT you win tonights prize for clarity! thanks!
chuckey - sorry luv, i dont understand! speak slowly, and try again please.
why would you start dismanteling at the "good end"?
we thought the easiest place to start would be the end nearest the floor, which is clearly beyond repair. you can poke your head through already. if youre mad.
would we have to put in some horizontal support for the walls?
woud the safest way be to -
1 prop everything so it cant move
do we just prop it into the position its in, or try to take a bit of the weight? (if so how much?),
2 remove loose timber and easily acessable debris,
3 remove a bit of the old floor working from the "down end", and put up scaffolding in the space we make.
4 start building the new floor to replace the lost timber as soon as possible.
i recon you could do a third at a time. work towards the "good end" which perhaps is still giving the walls some support? by the time we tackle this there could be a similar size area of good new floor and a few extra joists.
4 would that work?, or should we just get the old floor out of the way before attempting to build the new one
as long as everything is supported properly, and you take account of compression and tension in the wood, and leverage, does it matter where you cut? i was thinking we'd cut a working space through, and just take off manageable/salvagable chunks in an organised manner.
chuckey - sorry luv, i dont understand! speak slowly, and try again please.
why would you start dismanteling at the "good end"?
we thought the easiest place to start would be the end nearest the floor, which is clearly beyond repair. you can poke your head through already. if youre mad.
would we have to put in some horizontal support for the walls?
woud the safest way be to -
1 prop everything so it cant move
do we just prop it into the position its in, or try to take a bit of the weight? (if so how much?),
2 remove loose timber and easily acessable debris,
3 remove a bit of the old floor working from the "down end", and put up scaffolding in the space we make.
4 start building the new floor to replace the lost timber as soon as possible.
i recon you could do a third at a time. work towards the "good end" which perhaps is still giving the walls some support? by the time we tackle this there could be a similar size area of good new floor and a few extra joists.
4 would that work?, or should we just get the old floor out of the way before attempting to build the new one
as long as everything is supported properly, and you take account of compression and tension in the wood, and leverage, does it matter where you cut? i was thinking we'd cut a working space through, and just take off manageable/salvagable chunks in an organised manner.
chuckey
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- wenslydale
As I understand it, if you try to cut up the floor, starting at the down end, as you loosen sections of floorboarding the junk will come crashing through?
I do not think that trying to rebuild the floor with the old floor obstructing your access is on. At a minimum, you will have to get on top of the down section, remove rotten wood from walls, fiddle in a new joist that is 12 " wider then your barn wall to wall dimension into its holes then make them good all while standing on top of a pile of junk.
I think the first priority is to remove the junk. If you have a window or hatch above the floor, you could try to exit the the junk this way. You would then have to scale up and down the slope of the 100% safely propped floor dragging the junk up the slope to hurl it out of the window. Or if the window is at the down end, put a ladder down from it and lift the debris out. In all cases the floor is taking your weight and could cause it to tip sideways.
What I was proposing was to remove as much weight as high up on the floor as possible. In the end you could end up with your 2 ton of junk about 3 feet above the ground where is would not do too much harm if it falls through, because its not going to drag down 1/2 a ton of timber with it from a height of 8 feet.
Thinking about this, if you have them on site, a pile of 18" X 9" X 9" concrete blocks in pile would be a wonderful prop and a scaffolding tower could be erected as either a prop or a safety cage, my one is a cheopo one and its rated at 360Kg load.
Frank
I do not think that trying to rebuild the floor with the old floor obstructing your access is on. At a minimum, you will have to get on top of the down section, remove rotten wood from walls, fiddle in a new joist that is 12 " wider then your barn wall to wall dimension into its holes then make them good all while standing on top of a pile of junk.
I think the first priority is to remove the junk. If you have a window or hatch above the floor, you could try to exit the the junk this way. You would then have to scale up and down the slope of the 100% safely propped floor dragging the junk up the slope to hurl it out of the window. Or if the window is at the down end, put a ladder down from it and lift the debris out. In all cases the floor is taking your weight and could cause it to tip sideways.
What I was proposing was to remove as much weight as high up on the floor as possible. In the end you could end up with your 2 ton of junk about 3 feet above the ground where is would not do too much harm if it falls through, because its not going to drag down 1/2 a ton of timber with it from a height of 8 feet.
Thinking about this, if you have them on site, a pile of 18" X 9" X 9" concrete blocks in pile would be a wonderful prop and a scaffolding tower could be erected as either a prop or a safety cage, my one is a cheopo one and its rated at 360Kg load.
Frank
charlie-ia
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i think i see. the landslip of doom idea is clear at least!
the barn has a slope up to the top floor, so wheelbarrow acess is possible. at least as far as the door.
ok, scrap the idea of a new floor for now. we want the floor out so we can use the barn for space while we do the house up. if we were to leave the floor out for any period of time would the walls be safe? what would we need to do to make them safe?
how strong is the floor likely to be once its propped? i know thats an unanswerable question,but im struggling to find the right questions. i dont like the idea of sliding up and down that floor even if it is 100%safely propped.
im hoping we can clear about 5ft just from reaching through the upstairs doorway. once its propped from below, what do we do next? how do we reach the rest of it without walking on the floor? whats the name for a board/ladder you use to spread your weight? are they any use? or do we somehow cut hatches in the floor from below and put scaffolding through?
Andrew makes the removal of the timber itself sound quite simple-
how would the scaffolding be built out from the walls? and where do you attatch your safety arrestor to?
and anything else i aught to know while you're at it! thanks
the barn has a slope up to the top floor, so wheelbarrow acess is possible. at least as far as the door.
ok, scrap the idea of a new floor for now. we want the floor out so we can use the barn for space while we do the house up. if we were to leave the floor out for any period of time would the walls be safe? what would we need to do to make them safe?
how strong is the floor likely to be once its propped? i know thats an unanswerable question,but im struggling to find the right questions. i dont like the idea of sliding up and down that floor even if it is 100%safely propped.
im hoping we can clear about 5ft just from reaching through the upstairs doorway. once its propped from below, what do we do next? how do we reach the rest of it without walking on the floor? whats the name for a board/ladder you use to spread your weight? are they any use? or do we somehow cut hatches in the floor from below and put scaffolding through?
Andrew makes the removal of the timber itself sound quite simple-
bearing in mind the safety tips so far. does this sound fair enough?
how would the scaffolding be built out from the walls? and where do you attatch your safety arrestor to?
and anything else i aught to know while you're at it! thanks
> NT you win tonights prize for clarity! thanks!
Well thank you. More used to being complained at
> why would you start dismanteling at the "good end"?
we thought the easiest place to start would be the end nearest the floor, which is clearly beyond repair.
I'd agree there. Either way works though.
> would we have to put in some horizontal support for the walls?
i dont see why, but if your walls are leaning/bowing then maybe so.
> woud the safest way be to -
> 1 prop everything so it cant move
> do we just prop it into the position its in, or try to take a bit of the weight? (if so how much?),
yes, yes, no. Just bear in mind youve got to stop it moving in all 3 axes, and stay stabilised when you've cut sections of the floor off that may initially restrain it in some directions.
> 2 remove loose timber and easily acessable debris,
I'd want to remove all the goods, that way youre collapsing a manageable weight and know what direction it will all fall in.
> by the time we tackle this there could be a similar size area of good new floor and a few extra joists.
4 would that work?, or should we just get the old floor out of the way before attempting to build the new one
lifes hard enough already, I'd get it all out the way.
> as long as everything is supported properly, and you take account of compression and tension in the wood, and leverage, does it matter where you cut? i was thinking we'd cut a working space through, and just take off manageable/salvagable chunks in an organised manner.
yeah, I'd always keep it controlled, dismantle it bit by bit, not go for any dramatic stuff that could go wrong.
chuckey
For junk removal, I'd probably go for a wooden slope, and maybe a barrow. Might need signifcant labour to get it all out, just remember youre saving thousands.
I suppose if the floor is propped securely enough you might use it to walk on, but only if the propped structure cant move in any direction and is strong enough to survive the use. This means not relying on any rotten bits that are currently stopping it moving.
Youre going to need a lot of wood. A tree & saw(s) would save you quite a bit. Timber can be cheaper at auction, or is cheapest as a felled tree on freecycle.
> In the end you could end up with your 2 ton of junk about 3 feet above the ground where is would not do too much harm if it falls through, because its not going to drag down 1/2 a ton of timber with it from a height of 8 feet.
These are assumptions I would definitely not make. Youre dealing with a structure + load that weighs a ton or more, the uncontrolled collapse of which could bring the stone walls down and kill anyone inside. The whole operation must be done such that nothing can fall down or sideways until you permit it to.
> Thinking about this, if you have them on site, a pile of 18" X 9" X 9" concrete blocks in pile would be a wonderful prop
this is seriously dangerous. Block piles have no lateral stability at all. Just a few inches of sideways movement is enough to cause them to collapse. I know because I've played with them.
charlie-ia
> how strong is the floor likely to be once its propped? i know thats an unanswerable question,
depends on the size of wood its propped with, how the new wood is fixed to the old, whether youve secured the propwood & floor structure against sideways movement, and what state the floor itself is in. If the areas youre going on are disintegrating they may need reinforcing with new wood to make it ok to walk on.
> how do we reach the rest of it without walking on the floor?
Either make the floor safe with a lot of vertical propping & restraint, or dont go on it and build a new structure to walk on thats independant of the old, and that wont be knocked down if the old collapses.
> whats the name for a board/ladder you use to spread your weight?
sheet material is what you'd use for that if the boards themselves are rotten, but the joists are ok. Half inch chip is cheapest, and is adequate to walk on as long as its a big piece.
> are they any use? or do we somehow cut hatches in the floor from below and put scaffolding through?
Your choice. But I wouldnt be doing anything from below until it was all very well propped - and even then I'd rather work from above.
> Then it's just a case of cutting through the boards and removing them a bay at a time, followed by removal of the joists. A reciprocating saw or similar would speed things up. Move the props along as you go.
I'd choose a circular saw with a nail blade. A circ is way faster, and youve got a lot of cutting to do. You can also put nailsafe blades in them, and you'll need that for safety reasons.
> and where do you attatch your safety arrestor to?
If you use a harness, anything secure and higher up. I doubt I'd use one for this.
> and anything else i aught to know while you're at it! thanks
The key thing is to prevent movement in all 3 axes, both directions, and to dismantle small manageable weights at once.
NT
Well thank you. More used to being complained at
> why would you start dismanteling at the "good end"?
we thought the easiest place to start would be the end nearest the floor, which is clearly beyond repair.
I'd agree there. Either way works though.
> would we have to put in some horizontal support for the walls?
i dont see why, but if your walls are leaning/bowing then maybe so.
> woud the safest way be to -
> 1 prop everything so it cant move
> do we just prop it into the position its in, or try to take a bit of the weight? (if so how much?),
yes, yes, no. Just bear in mind youve got to stop it moving in all 3 axes, and stay stabilised when you've cut sections of the floor off that may initially restrain it in some directions.
> 2 remove loose timber and easily acessable debris,
I'd want to remove all the goods, that way youre collapsing a manageable weight and know what direction it will all fall in.
> by the time we tackle this there could be a similar size area of good new floor and a few extra joists.
4 would that work?, or should we just get the old floor out of the way before attempting to build the new one
lifes hard enough already, I'd get it all out the way.
> as long as everything is supported properly, and you take account of compression and tension in the wood, and leverage, does it matter where you cut? i was thinking we'd cut a working space through, and just take off manageable/salvagable chunks in an organised manner.
yeah, I'd always keep it controlled, dismantle it bit by bit, not go for any dramatic stuff that could go wrong.
chuckey
For junk removal, I'd probably go for a wooden slope, and maybe a barrow. Might need signifcant labour to get it all out, just remember youre saving thousands.
I suppose if the floor is propped securely enough you might use it to walk on, but only if the propped structure cant move in any direction and is strong enough to survive the use. This means not relying on any rotten bits that are currently stopping it moving.
Youre going to need a lot of wood. A tree & saw(s) would save you quite a bit. Timber can be cheaper at auction, or is cheapest as a felled tree on freecycle.
> In the end you could end up with your 2 ton of junk about 3 feet above the ground where is would not do too much harm if it falls through, because its not going to drag down 1/2 a ton of timber with it from a height of 8 feet.
These are assumptions I would definitely not make. Youre dealing with a structure + load that weighs a ton or more, the uncontrolled collapse of which could bring the stone walls down and kill anyone inside. The whole operation must be done such that nothing can fall down or sideways until you permit it to.
> Thinking about this, if you have them on site, a pile of 18" X 9" X 9" concrete blocks in pile would be a wonderful prop
this is seriously dangerous. Block piles have no lateral stability at all. Just a few inches of sideways movement is enough to cause them to collapse. I know because I've played with them.
charlie-ia
> how strong is the floor likely to be once its propped? i know thats an unanswerable question,
depends on the size of wood its propped with, how the new wood is fixed to the old, whether youve secured the propwood & floor structure against sideways movement, and what state the floor itself is in. If the areas youre going on are disintegrating they may need reinforcing with new wood to make it ok to walk on.
> how do we reach the rest of it without walking on the floor?
Either make the floor safe with a lot of vertical propping & restraint, or dont go on it and build a new structure to walk on thats independant of the old, and that wont be knocked down if the old collapses.
> whats the name for a board/ladder you use to spread your weight?
sheet material is what you'd use for that if the boards themselves are rotten, but the joists are ok. Half inch chip is cheapest, and is adequate to walk on as long as its a big piece.
> are they any use? or do we somehow cut hatches in the floor from below and put scaffolding through?
Your choice. But I wouldnt be doing anything from below until it was all very well propped - and even then I'd rather work from above.
> Then it's just a case of cutting through the boards and removing them a bay at a time, followed by removal of the joists. A reciprocating saw or similar would speed things up. Move the props along as you go.
I'd choose a circular saw with a nail blade. A circ is way faster, and youve got a lot of cutting to do. You can also put nailsafe blades in them, and you'll need that for safety reasons.
> and where do you attatch your safety arrestor to?
If you use a harness, anything secure and higher up. I doubt I'd use one for this.
> and anything else i aught to know while you're at it! thanks
The key thing is to prevent movement in all 3 axes, both directions, and to dismantle small manageable weights at once.
NT