Rights of Way

[Flyfisher]

This was prompted by

(I look at old maps and documents every day for rights of way)

on another thread, as it's very relevant to a current issue that I wouldn't have posted here except for the above confession!

I want to fence a field that has a footpath across it. I plan to just leave a 1.5m gap in the fence, where the footpath should be, to allow inimpeded access. The issue I have it that I'm not exactly sure where the footpath enters the field.

Currently, people walk through an old broken down gateway, but the footpath sign is about 8 yards further along in some undergrowth. Clearly, people are taking the easy route (which is OK at the moment) but if I'm going to fence the field I want to be sure I'm not going to be open to accusations of impeding the true route of the footpath.

I understand that footpath routes are defined by the 'definitive map' but I've also been told these are at 1:25000 scale. This doesn't seem large enough to resolve the exact route with sufficient accuracy.

I'm sure I can't be the first person to have come across this issue, so how are such things normally resolved?

 

[Nemesis]

Contact Rights of Way at your County Hall and talk to them about it.

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/footpaths/law/definitivemap.html

http://www.countrysideaccess.norfolk.gov.uk/maps.asp

http://www.countrysideaccess.norfolk.gov.uk/faqs-6.asp

 

[MdB]

Cornwall has an online mapping service which gives maps to roughly 1:1000 scale together with useful stuff like conservation areas and rights of way. It gets its data direct from the official database so it is very easy to work out questions like yours. (interestingly the plot of the bridle path outside of my house goes right through a large amount of bushes rather than down the track a few metres away.)

I had a quick look for a Norfolk version but couldn't find one. There is one for Devon though and parts of London so I guess there will be one somewhere.

If your official map is based on a 1:25000 map then this is to your advantage as there will be a big thick line marking the right of way. This will give you some flexibility in deciding where you want the right of way to go. I doubt too many people would complain if it was few metres out anyway.

 

[Nemesis]

It's a legal matter and any changes have to have proper procedures.

Norfolk, as the links I posted showm, has a definitive map and statement and before fencing or anything else RoW should be contacted. I rather suspect they will know where the path should go and have a view on the width too.

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, 1:1000 sounds much more like it. I will talk with my local council.

That Cornish GIS service looks very good indeed. I'll ask my council if Norfolk has anything like it for public access.

I'm not trying to change anything - that's a completely separate procedure. I just want to be sure of the existing route so I don't inadvertantly impede it.

I've read that there is no legal definition for the width of a footpath but that 1m is generally accepted as being sufficient for unimpeded access. So I thought I'd be generous and allow 1.5m.

Thanks for the pointers.

 

[Nemesis]

Extract from Norfolk’s Definitive Map of Public Rights of Way


Each path is numbered according to the Parish in which it is situated and each Parish has a Statement giving the description and location of the route and is also amended accordingly.
The Definitive Map is a legal document; it cannot be purchased but you can view it at County Hall, Norwich (Rights of Way Section), at the main libraries in Norfolk and your District Council will also have a copy for the local area.

Public Path Diversion, Creation and Extinguishment Orders are administered by the County Council. If you wish to apply for an Order or would like to know more please contact the Council.


I'd still let them know what you are planning, especially the fencing. Better to get RoW onboard at the outset than have members of the public cliaming they have walked a far wider area than you are intending to leave etc. There have been cases...

 

[Nemesis]

Widths:

. How wide should a path be?
The path should be whatever width was dedicated for public use. This width may have arisen through usage, or by formal agreement, or by order, for example if the path has been diverted. The width may be recorded in the statement accompanying the definitive map (see Q3) but in many cases the proper width will be a matter of past practice on that particular path (see also Q18 and Q20). Note the width of the right of way itself may be greater, or sometimes less, than the width of any track or hard-surfaced strip along the route.

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/info/britain/footpathlaw.html

There can be problems and Ramblers and Open Spaces Society are very keen that no rights are eroded.


This case illustrates some of the difficulties:

http://tinyurl.com/ywugfe
[Open in new window]

 

[middi]

It is my experience that county and Parish councils, including ramblers. are more than happy if you wish to define the original footpath with edge shrubs or post and rail fence.

Most owners just plow the land or let it overgrow and walkers find another
short cut

 

[Nemesis]

The lawful width of the way needs first to be established before fencing, which others may object to, and any owner who ploughs or blocks a path (which is a public highway) should be reported to RoW which should take action against them!

Or indeed contact Ramblers or the OSS.

 

[Nemesis]

Here's more about path widths:

http://www.badfa.org.uk/laws/widths/widths.htm


and about paths:

http://www.oss.org.uk/rights%20of%20way/ownership/ownership.htm

 

[another_richard]

Hello Flyfisher,

I am no expert on this and it appears that much of what I was going to say has been covered.

I am concentrating on providing historical evidence to abck up user evidence in support of claims.

From your description people are indeed taking the easy route. In order to establish where the actual route commences (and thereby establish where you can place your opening) I would first (as has been established above) contact your ROW officer and let them establish it.
Their Definitive Map and Statement, if digitized on GIS should be easy to locate exactly,as well as the width. If not, then a trawl through the archives might be a second bet. The first and most important document being the Inclosure (if one was produced) for your parish.
careful though you could be opening a can of worms, it might have higher rights!.
If the original entrance exit has been overgrown and the public are now using an entrance further down the field then it appears the problem lies with the Council as they have a duty of care to maintain that PROW, (unless somewhere in the historic evidence Definitive Map Statement says it is you).
If the original entrance to the path is in the undergrowth then it is not a simple case of well let's use the new entrance, as the orignical one would have to be stopped up and the new one created, lest you have two entrances to your field.
My advice: and I think I am really only confirming what has already been said.
Speak politely to PROW officer and state your intention is to close the newly evolved entrance (or keep it and leave the other as is) and find out who is responsible for the reinstatement of the entrance and reinstate it.

On the width of the path being the same as the opening gate to the field, the awarded width can differ from parish to parish and some with a minimum of several feet, but i am sure you would not require a 20 foot opening. Again the PROW Officer will advise (and pay for!) as to the standard entrance type to the field.

As I have said I am no expert (yet) as I am only in my second year of this.

Good luck.

 

[Nemesis]

Not all PROW's of course come from an Inclosure Award, many are claimed by dint of usage (without let or hindrance etc) over 20 years, and the widths can vary as to what people claim they used.

It can cause controversy trying to restrict widths as I have said, and what seems a simple matter can escalate, so tread carefully and warily!

Keeping local Ramblers, OSS reps, and the RoW Officer onboard and happy is a great idea in these circumstances. Fencing in a path can provoke reactions. It's not universally popular.

But I agree - if the 'mapped' route is blocked and people are now using an alternative, try to get the original route back in use or there might be problems. Nothing to stop anyone keeping the way open, it might be prudent to consider a bit of surreptitious undergrowth clearance.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm not trying to fence the footpath; indeed, I'm expressely trying NOT to fence the footpath. The field fencing is all broken down and I want to reinstate it, leaving an appropriate gap where the footpath enters the field. I don't even want to install a new gate across the footpath.

I'm happy to cut down all the undergrowth to leave the path clear and accessible, I just want to be absolutely sure where it should be. Then, if anyone claims they can no longer walk through the existing gateway, I'll be able to politely show them the correct route. Actually, they'll see it anyway as it's less than 10m from the current route.

So, yes, I guess it's good to talk first. I called the council this morning. After some 'telephone tag' someone said they would track down the ROW officer and get them to call me back. I'm still waiting.

 

[Nemesis]

No, I realise you aren't fencing the footpath but I do know any perceived restirctions at any part of a PROW can bring all manner of cans of worms to the fore, just warning you!

Ramblers and OSS can prove difficult, although in many cases I think with some reason.

 

[Flyfisher]

It can be a delicate subject, I know. I'm sure there are good and bad on both sides but, unfortunately, I've only seen the 'ramblers' bad side - like their persistent refusal to stay on the footpath and wander all over the field plus the constant use of a private lane (with no PROW rights) as a public road, despite the appropriate notices. But what can you do?

 

[Nemesis]

Well - there are people out for a walk who think they have a 'right to roam' anywhere at all and there are genuine Ramblers (as in members of) and other walkers who do respect the rights of others.

No, it's a very sensitive subject I agree, but best be aware of some of the pitfalls and get those who can officially cause problems on your side at the outset!

 

[Flyfisher]

I agree, and wasn't meaning to tar all walkers with the same brush by any means (hence my quotes around 'ramblers'). Such matters probably demand more diplomacy than the middle east problems.

Still waiting for a call from the council. I'll finish my lunch and then start calling them again.

 

[Nemesis]

The RoW Officer may of course be lost in the undergrowth somewhere...

I do find though rather too many have no idea of their rights and the restrictions as to the extent of those (or indeed responsibilities) when it comes to RoW, but are very keen to tell you they have 'em!

 

[Flyfisher]

They called back and I now know who to talk to; pity they're not actually in the office though - out inspecting footpaths I guess. I did confirm there is no defined width on the definitive map though, so I'm making progress. Looks like a visit from my friendly PROW officer is the next step.

 

[Nemesis]

Smile and look as though you are genuinely seeking help to aid you in the legal issues and all those bobble hatted ramblers are ever so welcome... ;-)

A copy of Wainwright lying around, your walking boots with mud on 'em casually displayed...


PS no don't anyone post and say no-one wears bobble hats these days. They they do...