Replacing modern bricks with 'old'... possible?

[88v8]

Alterations and additions should be appropriate and fit in. I don't at all buy the idea that everything should be 'of its time'. Cement is of our time.

The notion of modern additions in glass and steel is just an excuse for crass insensitivity. A GII house up the road from us has an extension we call the toilet block. Nuff said.

However, in this case, personally I wouldn't go to the extent of building out that poor brickwork unless the panels needed redoing. In that case, I wonder, would the CO insist that the work be badly done again?

Ivor

 

[Flyfisher]

Alterations and additions should be appropriate and fit in. I don't at all buy the idea that everything should be 'of its time'. Cement is of our time.

Indeed, as are PVC windows and doors :shock:

The problem with 'should be appropriate and fit in' is that it depends so much on fashion and 'taste' and is so hard to define on paper, so plenty of room for argument. I'd say that COs have a pretty tough job.

 

[xanthe]

Had left post half-written and come back so hadn't seen the above.

Keith, we may have an issue with a timber that may be hiding behind a row of badly spalling tiles - until we prise them off, we won't know - so I may have that to come.

The LBO has said that if the timber is totally done for then to replace with modern bricks, if not then to splice in new timber if repair is needed. I was talking to the conservation builder I had round to look at the pointing and the mess of the gable walls and he said to press to use seasoned oak as otherwise it would be moving for ages and mess up all the brick infill again.

I'm guessing people tend to fall into several camps on the restoration/conservation issue.

88v8 - there are quite a few brick infill panels that need rebuilding - sadly all on the gable wall not this one - and they are the original bricks already in lime, so those that need doing will come out and then go back like a jigsaw (I will be sat over them with stickers for numbering!)

agbagb - I think I might have a bash at that.

Having seen this last night, I am feeling very thankful that I won't be owning these walls (warning, not suitable for those of a sensitive disposition): http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/33297564?search_identifier=473f1196f54934fadb9ad412e3da6f13#U3VuMeQK1RI7HDRu.97

 

[Gareth Hughes]

From what I have seen in the area of London I live in (where I was also vice-chair on the planning committee for 4 years), and my parent's 'projects' over most of my life, the rules seem very arbitrary. I was forever reporting things to the Conservation Officer and they never took action - beautiful row of Georgian cottages where someone decided to take the front window and half the front wall out and put in a huge bay window with stain-glass and stick-on lead strips. If ever there was a case for prosecution and enforcement it was that - conservation area, every other property in the row with the original windows etc, and they did not lift a finger.

Then you hear of situations like a woman who had to go to court to be able to rip out a 1960's cheap monstrosity of a fireplace to expose the beautiful and original ingle-nook behind it. .

First example, I'm guessing, conservation area but not covered by an Article 4 direction? so despite what you might expect it's permitted development and doesn't require permission (successive governments have always legislated on the side of the homeowner who wants to "improve" without having to ask rather than the neighbours who are horrified), second example presumably a listed building though I would love to have a reference to that particular case.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Gosh, I can't believe I've been so misinterpreted. I am talking about repairs that stick out like a saw thumb but are then embraced because they show the history. A historic bad repair is as bad as a recent one isn't it? I also don't understand why modern additions are usually ultra modern in style or links between old and new parts of buildings are glass and steel even when nothing else is, which to my eyes makes for a very jarring mixture of styles (or juxtaposition if you are inclined to use that sort of language). I think it is good to embrace the best of modern technology, but it shouldn't be at the expense of aesthetics. If Norwich cathedral had a very badly designed or constructed spire, or one in a material that was not in keeping such as red brick, glass and steel, or pvc, I think there would be a good argument to remove it. As it stands I wouldn't have a clue that it was not part of the original construction as it fits in so well, and i believe that is the kind of repair and addition that people should strive for.

rendered georgian gothick style front on exposed timber frame? Not matching styles, not matching materials, everything about it is, according to that view, a jarring disgrace

 

[88v8]

rendered georgian gothick style front on exposed timber frame? Not matching styles, not matching materials, everything about it is, according to that view, a jarring disgrace

Yes, and there are many other 'of their time' examples, the Georgians, Victorians in the main didn't give a hoot.
But time has mellowed them.
That doesn't actually make it right... we are supposed to know better, we have COs and legislative paraphernalia to protect old buildings, unfortunately the process seems to have become perverted.

Having seen this last night, I am feeling very thankful that I won't be owning these walls (warning, not suitable for those of a sensitive disposition): http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/33297564?search_identifier=473f1196f54934fadb9ad412e3da6f13#U3VuMeQK1RI7HDRu.97

Was quite liking that until :shock:
Our cottage was cement pointed. Still is, in part. PO meticulously painted over the orrible grey pointing with stone-colour masonry paint and a teensy brush. Other than the texture, one wouldn't know. We have a room, one wall we had chopped out and lime pointed because of damp, two walls retain painted-over cement. Only a pointing wonk would know.

Ivor

 

[xanthe]

I'll have to find out what the case was with the woman with the fireplace next time I see the builder (aka when I'm rich enough to pay for his particular bit).

Yes, that house looks pretty good right up to the :shock: !

I have seen some amazingly horrible things in the last 6 months of house hunting - one of the saddest was a listed Rothschild cottage where the original fireplaces had been replaced with modern glass ones (and yet the property was being promoted as having so many original features).

I did hear a story the other day from a friend whose sister is an artist - she bought a listed property years ago and wanted to put in a doorway. She was denied consent. She happened to have a very old watercolour of the house so she removed it from the frame, very carefully painted in the door she wanted, put it back in the frame and presented it to the Listed Buildings people... she was granted permission as long as it was the exact door in the painting! Very naughty, but did make me laugh.

 

[TimM]

I'd just grow a climbing plant over it. everyone's happy...

 

[malcolm]

It would probably be nice to make the bricks match the others a little better, but I'd put it at a low priority. You'll probably find a whole lot of other stuff to do more urgently when you move in, and you'll want a rest after that. My own unsightly brick replacement program has gone off the boil a bit.

 

[xanthe]

Malcom - I think the brick obsession may be my way of blocking out the 135 page (incl 50 pages of photos) surveyors report!

On the big list are:
- new roof
- rebuild top of chimney and new dormer window
- complete overhaul of wiring/plumbing/central heating
- cement removal and repointing the whole house (which may involve re-building some infill panels on the gable)
- sort out damp issues in the cellar (hoping putting in proper ventilation and removing the cement pointing may help with this)
- insulation

In about 4 years I might be able to start thinking about paint colours and curtain fabrics!

Tim M - a small and not too dangerous to mortar/pointing plant is a very good plan!

 

[simonmorley]

There is only one solution as far as I am concerned.
Call Bebbington Brick Services.
Their founder, George Bebbington, is a clay technologist and came up with the solution to this very problem in 1968.
Tinting brick and mortar is widely used and recognised across the brick and stone industry.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Would you be the Simon Morley who is or was also sales manager at Bebbington Brick? Blatant advertising like that is frowned on on this forum.

 

[simonmorley]

Hi Gareth,

I left Bebbingtons in 2010, but I still believe passionately in what they do.
I own an 1876 property in Dresden, Staffs and I'm now looking for another period property to fix up and move my family into.
Hence my interest in the forum.
It remains a fact that Bebbingtons are the original and best, I make no commercial gain from this post.
If Bebbingtons make one sale, go, go, go independent British family business and enterprise v's foreign owned late comers.

 

[xanthe]

Fun things - always like the before & after pics. Amazing what companies there are out there.

Annoyingly the offending bricks are darker and brighter than the others, so darker or weathering tints would make the situation worse not better. I'm thinking of doing a mix of VERY weak limewash with some ashes and dirt and doing it brick by brick. I'm an illustrator, so I could always go out with a box of acrylics and paint each one the right colour, but would prefer the solution to be breathable.

I've been looking at the brick mending kits - the fireplace in the main bedroom has brick walls either side of the bressumer (and might have a nice brick inside - need to drill some holes and shove an endoscope in to see). All the faces of the bricks have been knocked off, so I'm hoping that I might be able to re-face them with the stuff. As it's indoors, the end result won't have to stand up to rain and so on.

 

[masochists-r-us]

Interesting discussion.
Xanthe I don't see any merit at all in leaving poorly matching brickwork on show for the sake of posterity, if you don't need to. Given the various ideas for re-colouring the bricks, this seems like the best way forward as opposed to invasive rebuilding and in any case, it looks like it's good quality work overall.
We have a 17th C stone banded property which had its walls raised in the Victorian era to accommodate more occupants in the roof space. The extra courses are all in plain limestone and do stand out from the rest. When we first bought the house, like you I was very fixated on them, but over time and since we removed the 1960's casement windows and installed more appropriate ones, it has become less of an issue for me. However, I would definitely re-colour them to match the rest of the front of the building if I could ensure an authentic result. If re-build was the only option, I would forget about them.
Can anyone tell me whether any of the re-colouring methods suggested would work on limestone as well as brick,by any chance ?

 

[Feltwell]

Fun things - always like the before & after pics. Amazing what companies there are out there.

Annoyingly the offending bricks are darker and brighter than the others, so darker or weathering tints would make the situation worse not better.

I'd be tempted to send some pictures off to someone like Bebbingtons and see what they say, what have you got to lose? In fact, if you look at their home page, the before and after shots show the darker bricks have been lightened rather than t'other way round.

There's a house just up the road for me that's crying out for some brick tinting, it has an extension on the side that just doesn't look right because the bricks are the wrong shade. It wouldn't have looked quite so bad if the architect had moved the line of the front wall back a few inches - so the extension looked subservient to the main building - and maybe even dropped the roofline slightly for the same reason. But no, they went for it looking flush with the front house wall and roof line, which you'd really only get away with if you had a perfect brick match.

If they'd stepped it back, rendered it and painted it a drab neutral colour it would probably have looked better still. I do think that often a deliberate contrast looks better than a bad match. My garage bricks aren't a perfect match for the house, but I get away with it as there is a 15' gap between them. I was tempted to build a brick wall in that gap but I put a timber fence up instead, as I knew the bricks just wouldn't look quite right if they were hard up against the house.