Renovation of a timber framed medieval cottage

[KayW]

We are in the process of purchasing two attached cottages - one of which is a late medieval timber framed single storey cottage (Grade II listed- 2 up 2 down).

The timber frame is exposed on one gable wall. The exposed frame (west facing) is water damaged and has been badly repaired with cement render. The infils are brick and in some places cement rendered.

The remainder of the house and timber frame is covered by a cement based roughcast. (We are planning to strip this off and replace it with a lime based render/roughcast to help the house breathe).

Today we had a full buildings survey performed by a historic building consultant/surveyor (experienced in timber framed houses). We were expecting to employ professionals to repair the gable end by removing the damaged timber and splicing in new, as well as relacing the sole plate, however we were hoping that as the house was stable the remainder of the frame under ths render would be in better shape (minor replacement).

However our surveyor is of the opinion that the roof (will need replacing in the future anyway) will need to be removed, all the infills removed as well as all other remaining materials, leaving only the timber frame. He would then suggest having the sole plate replaced and underpinned. Basically removing everything except the timber frame. Our purchase price would represent a very expensive damaged timber frame!

My question is, as the timber frame is predominately covered, is our surveyor looking at the worst case scenario or is taking the frame back to this level normal in a house of this age?

We want to renovate the house symathetically and retain as many original materials as possible.

If there are any timber frame professionals out there who can shed some light on the likely costs or provide any assistance it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[NT]

Pics of the damage would surely help


NT

 

[DaveBrigg]

Welcome to the forum Kay
It sounds like you have gone about things the right way. If the building is stable, and cement render hides whatever damage there may or may not be, the surveyor must be estimating a worse case scenario. (maybe the cement is holding the building together??) Presumably by repairing the roof and rendering with lime you will significantly reduce the chance of any further damage.
However, if you are relying on this survey for a mortgage, your choices may be limited anyway. It sounds like a fascinating project though - keep us posted please.

 

[KayW]

Thank you for the welcome!

NT - I do not have any great pictures of the gable end but will endeavour to get a few and add them. Still getting over the shock of the survey this morning!

Thanks for the advice Dave. My worst nightmare is that the cement render is holding it together. This is to be our family home and we want to ensure that the building is still standing in 20 years. The surveyor has said that by replacing the render we are just shifting the problem until later- if we want to do a proper job we need to take it back to this level. Difficult to know if this is too belt and braces.

We attended a seminar recently on period properties and the speaker suggested most surveyors, with little experience of historic buildings, would strip nealy all timbers and infills and it was not necessary as most could be restored. However as this surveyor is a historic building consultant and very experienced I am not sure he can be classed as one of these surveyors.

This was a private survey - we will just be paying for a valuation from the mortgage company (Northern Rock). As this is new to me I am not sure whether they will ask to see our private survey or not.

It is a very exciting project and I am in love with the two cottages that we hope to combine as one family home. Unfortunately as with everyone I have a budget and am concerned just the frame and infills could cost me £80 - £100k. I want to try everything before I have to decide whether to walk away.

I will keep you posted.

Many thanks for oyur comment!

PS: If anyone does know of a specialist in timber frames in the herefordshire area would much appreciate contact details.

Any owners of timber framed houses who have done this I would love to hear from you too.

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[KayW]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/1557882639_d2ccfbc2b2.jpg?v=0

 

[Nemesis]

This all sounds incredibly drastic, and have you tried talking to your Conservation Officer to see if it would be allowed regarding Listed Building Consent?

I hesitate to say this, but there are HBC's and HBC's. Some have rather more expertise than others.

 

[KayW]

Thanks Nemesis - thats exactly what I think but do not want to underestimate it!

Met the conservation officer earlier in the week to discuss the work we wanted to do (before the survey). He acknowledged that the end gable would need some work and that with LBC we could remove the render and replace with lime render but he did not mention that the property may need such a drastic overhaul.

I think my only choice is to wait for the full written survey next week (his advice was verbal)and get a timber frame specialist to take a look.

 

[Nemesis]

I also have to say that your surveyor could be right, if the frame has been covered in cement the damage may be bad, but it could also be a worse case scenario.

We attended a seminar recently on period properties and the speaker suggested most surveyors, with little experience of historic buildings, would strip nealy all timbers and infills and it was not necessary as most could be restored. However as this surveyor is a historic building consultant and very experienced I am not sure he can be classed as one of these surveyors.

Yes, those with no historic buildings expertise/sympathy could suggest this - instead of trying to save historic infill - but some would also suggest infilling with cement or other unsuitable materials also.

It does look as though the building is well covered with hard render, which could be trapping moisture and rotting the frame etc.

As for underpinning - I'd be interested in knowing more - why and with what?

The building seems to have stood for centuries without being underpinned!

 

[KayW]

Nemesis

Apparently the sole plate on the gable end has been removed and the surveyor suggests replacing it with a new one. The new sole plate will need something to sit on and he is talking about digging trenches - filling with concrete (not breathable I know - he also believes in dpc on the mid 19c cottage!) to support the plate. THere may be very little for it to sit on.

I hope this makes sense coming from a complete novice (our last house was 1970s!!!!).

 

[Nemesis]

I think the concrete a very bad idea indeed. If it requires anything then lime would be better.

It's not just the breathablity aspect.That doesn't really matter for foundations (although concrete is environmentally lousy) there are other construction issues to consider.

Remember - traditionally, soleplates did not sit on deep concrete foundations, and houses are still standing.


Also - is he talking an injection DPC?

This is starting to sound worrying...

 

[KayW]

d.p.c - Yes he is. But don't worry I have read enough to know this is not a good idea in this age house- planning to remove cement render - replace with lime. Dig up concrete floors and lay some sort of lime crete (LECA) subbase etc. THe conservation officer did not like the idea of the dpc either - he suggested tanking!!

The walls are soaking! Have rising damp up to about 4 feets in this house- and is attached to the timber frame cottage.

We will also be replacing the roof/fascias/guttering and rebuilding two chimneys to try and stop casues of damp rather then just trying to stop it rising. We will remove all the interior plaster and let it dry out and add heating which the house has not had for 30 yrs. Hopefully all these measure will do the trick.

This forum is taught me a lot already! Will not let cement based anything near either cottage!

 

[Nemesis]

TANKING???

 

[KayW]

I know I know - will not be doing this either!

I have been told the 'lime' route and holistic approach to damp is a purist view but one I agree with. It just makes sense!

 

[Nemesis]

It's how these places survived for centuries - until cement...

It looks a lovely place but could be a money pit. (as are so many!!)

But worth the cherishing.

 

[Anita]

Hi Kay - we too have a house that was riddled with rising damp (along with good old dry rot too). Don't believe anyone who tells you that it wil only rise up to 1 metre - our went almost to the ceiling in one room!

Our house's problems were basically caused by the house sitting in a pool of water. All field drains taking water away from property were blocked/smashed, yet the one that allowed water to flow towards the house was surprise surprise - perfectly free-flowing which allowed a huge pool to develop underneath one corner of the living room (where the damp was almost up to the ceiling).

Once we had layed new drainage all around the house, which was a huge and extremely messy/invasive job to the yard and garden, - the change in the atmosphere in the house could be felt as early as the following winter. Even though we had no heating at the time - the house was still bitterly cold - but with out the same dampness. The following year - once heating was installed we felt like we were living in the lap of luxury!

I suppose I am therefore saying is to look at other causes of your damp. A damp course in our house wouldn't have solved anything given that it was permanently standing in water - which no doubt would have just found other ways to get into the property had we gone along the dpc route!

Costwise however, this solution was not cheap - and there's nothing to show for it except a muddy yard - 4 years and many tons of stone on!!! However we managed to get to the bottom of the problem and any other way would simply have been throwing good money after bad. I'm sure that many of us live in much loved "money-pits" - but it may be worth a bit more investigation not just of your property itself, but the site also - before you make your final decision. At least then you know what you are dealing with!

Good luck.

 

[Nemesis]

Cement render - there's one possible cause of damp trapped.

If indeed there is damp of course.

 

[Penners]

The first house that I renovated was a small timberframe cottage. But none of the frame was externally exposed. Nevertheless, a fair number of the timbers were badly rotted, and the house had a closing order on it, forbidding occupation because of its dangerous condition.

Like Nemesis, I'm worried about some of the recommendations that you've been given. As an amateur, I hesitate to question a historic buildings consultant, but are you entirely happy with his credentials? I just feel that he's given you a very dogmatic and drastic set of recommendations on the basis of (presumably) one visual inspection.

With any old building, any attempt to renovate and repair has to be carried out on a "suck it and see" basis. For everything that you can see on the surface there are potentially dozens of issues that won't be apparent until you've dug about, opened up, etc. You just have to take the work carefully a step at a time, and make new decisions based on what you discover. So I'm always a bit sceptical if a full "bill of works" is written at the outset.

On what basis is this person suggesting that the roof needs taking off? In the picture it looks very sound (although a photo can of course be very misleading). Is it leaking badly in a lot of places? Are the timbers rotten? Are the battens rotten? Is there nail fatigue?

I'm rather surprised to hear your surveyor's suggestion that the sole plate on the gable end has been removed, and that if a new sole plate is installed you need to underpin in order for the sole plate to have something to stand on. The implication of this statement is that the vertical studs are just standing with their ends on the earth. I find that suprising (although I hasten to add once again that I'm an amateur).

However, even if it is the case, the job of creating a brick plinth along the gable wall with a sole plate on top is not perhaps as drastic as it sounds.

I have read enough to know this [a dpc] is not a good idea in this age house

Be a bit careful of your interpretation of what you have read. An injected dpc is probably not advisable, simply because the process can have questionable/unsuccessful results. But if I was installing a new sole plate on top of a brick plinth, I would certainly install a damp-proof membrane between the bricks and the timber plate.

As regards the gable wall itself, given that the box frame is exposed externally, then it is quite understandable that that there may be damage to the timbers. But once again, the recommendation that the whole infill should just be ripped out smacks of laziness. If you are able to identify the areas where the timber needs replacing, there's no reason why this can't be carried out with minimal damage to the infill.

 

[skier-hughes]

We have an Northern Rock mortgage and after sending round there normal surveyor they told us we had to have a full survey done by somebody with a qualification in historic buildings.
Couldn't find a surveyor, all those local said they didn't have the qualification, but had 20/30 blah di blah years experience in historic buildings.
Contacted SPAB, who'd we joined, they couldn't help, as the names they suggested where the ones we'd already contacted, but no qualification.
Contacted RICS, who said, blimey somebody with that qualification, and gave me the names of two people in the country.
Phoned them up, both were quantity surveyors, specialsing in things like cathedrals.
They also told us it was so expensive for the PD that it was not worthwhile your common or garden historic surveyor doing it as they just couldn't justify the cash outlay, which was what our most local and SPAB recommended surveyor had told us.
Went back to Northern Rock and said sorry, there isn't anyone in the country with this qualification who we can find, told them story, so you find the surveyor you want and we'll instruct them.

ANyway we get a call from a guy who said NR had contacted him to survey our house, he was a structural engineer, not a surveyor, and didn't hold the qualification.

Anyway, he only cost £450, (our two local surveyors were talking £2 - £3k) so we had him do the report for NR and then had a slightly less full report from our chosen surveyor.

Before outlaying any more, I'd get NR to get started and see what they say, as you may be paying out for something that they won't accept and you have to do again with someone else.


After all that writing, can't really say much about your house, apart from the fact, he ahs seen it and we haven't. He probably is worse case scenario, as ours was. Two years on we are gradually working through ours at a pace that suits us and the house is still standing!!

As for the dpc bit, did he say chemical injection, or was he just thinking of a dpc to stop the wood rotting again, maybe like a piece of plastic or maybe even slate?

Graham

 

[middi]

I have read this thread with some interest. What you are confronted with is typical decay in a 15th/16th C. timber framed building wich has been " patched up" at various times in it's past with incorrect building materials therefore speeding up the natural decay process.

Unfortunately in such an old building, the " repairs" exercised in the past have( more than likely!!) managed to destroy a large amount of the original intended fabric. This accumulation of good, bad, or indifferent intervention with the structure, coupled with a natural decay process, has left the buiding ( as you have discovered) in a lot of TLC.

The question now is the repair, restore and replace process, this can ONLY be be put into practice once YOU ( or your advisors), and with the CO input, can IDENTIFY which of the above is better suited for the long life conservation of the building.

A "money is no object" attitude is a luxury in short suppy for a majority of situations, at times it can also be a passport to more distruction if in the less expert hand.

If it is of any consolation ( albeit even more confusing for you), is the fact that " experts" WILL disagree with each other on the best course of action to take if their individual assesment of the restoration approach is analysed. The irony is that their particular individual approach is more than likely to be correct for the building. The repair budget available will usually decide who is right.


This is where the help of a very experienced " hands on approach" type of restorer is a blessing, he/she will know by instinct what and how to repair, replace or complement it's restoration with the aid of some modern building materials where appropriate. This would be done in such a way that the aesthetic appearance of the building will no be compromised and most important of all any repairs carried out would be totally reversible at any future date, if so required.

In the meantime the building will be properly conserved and extremely comfortable for habitation, this is especially appropriate where the budget is somewhat limited.

On a 500/600 year old timber frame building it is not unusual to find that only about 75% of the timber frame will be saved, any remnants of the original infill ( if any) will be damaged if extensive repairs have to be carried out on the frame itself . You can most certainly rebuild again with new wattle and daub panels, brick infills or any other fabric as originally intended but this would be costly if done by a restoration company but will cost very little if you have the time or enthusiasm to do it yourself.

Once the frame has been correctly repaired and properly supported on new timber sole plates and the roof structure repaired and secured, you can certainly keep the exhorbitant costs of cladding down if you want to. It would not be difficult to revert back to wattle and daub or any other labour intensive tradidionals infills and cladding at any future date.

It must be remembered that whatever is lost, is lost for ever, you can certainly recreate it by duplicating it, strictly speaking you would then be in the realm of reproduction and not restoration.

You are on the right track by asking lots of question.

Good luck.

 

[Penners]

Well, hello Middi. We haven't heard from you for a while. Been busy in Norfolk?