Penners
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OK - you'll just have to work quickly. :wink:
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Ian Bond said:Penners said:
That leaves about 1 day a year then, up here in Yorkshire
Thanks Penners.
Yes, us too Ian. At 1500ft up we're very limited although we did have some fantastic weather last March for a couple of days. Ho hum...I'm sure we'll work something out.
You can use hessian and tarpaulins to protect lime mortar from the elements whilst it's curing. But I wouldn't risk doing any lime mortar work outside in deepest winter.
The PPUK shop sells hessian for this purpose, under Plaster and Mortars > Lime related products.
The PPUK shop sells hessian for this purpose, under Plaster and Mortars > Lime related products.
Have you seen this guide by the way?
http://www.periodpropertyshop.co.uk/acatalog/Plastering.html
Good question. My house isn't rendered, but I have replaced damaged stone blocks in the external walls, and pointed with fat lime mortar. The repaired section was within 3 ft of the ground, so I cobbled together a rough timber frame and propped it against the wall, and hung the cover on that to keep the rain and cold wind away. The hessian didn't touch any mortar.
I suppose if you had scaffolding in place you could hang sheets from it as protection, without them actually touching the wall. I'd be worried about them acting as a sail in high winds though - could be very dangerous.
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/scaffold/scaffold.htm
http://www.periodpropertyshop.co.uk/acatalog/Plastering.html
Good question. My house isn't rendered, but I have replaced damaged stone blocks in the external walls, and pointed with fat lime mortar. The repaired section was within 3 ft of the ground, so I cobbled together a rough timber frame and propped it against the wall, and hung the cover on that to keep the rain and cold wind away. The hessian didn't touch any mortar.
I suppose if you had scaffolding in place you could hang sheets from it as protection, without them actually touching the wall. I'd be worried about them acting as a sail in high winds though - could be very dangerous.
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/scaffold/scaffold.htm
skier-hughes
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See here for pictures of how it is done.
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8321&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
Scaffolding in toens etc alwys has covers to protect people, it has to be done correctly thought to ensure it doesn't take off as you say
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8321&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
Scaffolding in toens etc alwys has covers to protect people, it has to be done correctly thought to ensure it doesn't take off as you say
Penners
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Adds substantially to the overall cost of the job though, I imagine.
Gervase
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Not really - that hessian cost me about £40 and the battening about £25 which, in the overall scheme of things, isn't much. The 2x1 battens were later used to prepare screeds and the hessian has been re-used several times since.
Penners
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But surely the scaffolding hire would be costly for anyone who doesn't have their own?
What Gervase is suggesting makes perfect sense if you are a contractor, and going to do the job more than once.
I'd wait until the spring/summer and do it when I could enjoy the lovely weather!!! Saves trouble all round, unless it is desperately needed to render immediately for some reason...
I'd wait until the spring/summer and do it when I could enjoy the lovely weather!!! Saves trouble all round, unless it is desperately needed to render immediately for some reason...
Alright to address some concerns...
We live in a very exposed and almost always wet part of the world so I expect we will need to protect the newly applied render somehow.
We intend to buy a scafflod tower as we need to do various bits of work at various different times and the last time the ladders came out they almost blew away so not at all practical for even painting the roofline. Scaffolding is safest albeit turning a simple job such as painting into a mammoth task...rather that than meet an untimely demise.
So yes, in the grand scheme of things the cost of materials to protect the work isn't really that much if they are as cheap as you say and I'm hazzrding a guess certainly a lot cheaper than the £15k we were quoted.
I can't see the pictures on my work PC...I'll have a look at that tonight. Thanks for the link though, all information is very useful at this stage.
I see Wormsley sells exterior insulation boards which presumably we can lime render over. Does anybody have any thoughts on this...good or bad? Obviously I will contact the company and ask but it's always good to get an impartial opinion.
We live in a very exposed and almost always wet part of the world so I expect we will need to protect the newly applied render somehow.
We intend to buy a scafflod tower as we need to do various bits of work at various different times and the last time the ladders came out they almost blew away so not at all practical for even painting the roofline. Scaffolding is safest albeit turning a simple job such as painting into a mammoth task...rather that than meet an untimely demise.
So yes, in the grand scheme of things the cost of materials to protect the work isn't really that much if they are as cheap as you say and I'm hazzrding a guess certainly a lot cheaper than the £15k we were quoted.
I can't see the pictures on my work PC...I'll have a look at that tonight. Thanks for the link though, all information is very useful at this stage.
I see Wormsley sells exterior insulation boards which presumably we can lime render over. Does anybody have any thoughts on this...good or bad? Obviously I will contact the company and ask but it's always good to get an impartial opinion.
Nothing's easy is it :roll:
My husband bumped into a local builder last week who came along to have a look and see if he could do the re-rendering for us. He explained that we wanted lime render and the chap said ok no problems I'll come and see what it looks like.
On Friday the chap came back to us and said he thought lime render would damage the bricks even more than they are just now. He also said he didn't think that the original render would have been lime. Would that be right on a solid walled house? He said he would put stainless steel mesh over and render with cement!????
I have searched for information on lime damaging spalled bricks but I haven't seen anything quite so badly spalled as ours.
Could you guys cast your eyes over these pictures and give me your thoughts please. We had to remove a section of cement render due to the downpipe having been cracked right in front of a cracked bit of render. When we removed the section of render that had in effect fallen off the wall anyway, half of the face of the bricks came away presumably due to frost damage. We didn't force any of the render away from the wall so this is all damage caused by the cement render. You can see how thick it is and how heavy it must be on the bricks.
Top of the wall next to the damaged downpipe:
http://naughtystep.wordpress.com/files/2007/10/dsc03016.jpg
Bottom corner of the wall showing the worst of the spalling/crumbling:
http://naughtystep.wordpress.com/files/2007/10/dsc03019.jpg
Top of the wall around the corner where bricks are missing:
http://naughtystep.wordpress.com/files/2007/10/dsc03015.jpg
Our plan was to replace missing bricks, re-point with lime mortar and re-render with lime render...hydraulic as has been advised earlier in this thread.
My husband bumped into a local builder last week who came along to have a look and see if he could do the re-rendering for us. He explained that we wanted lime render and the chap said ok no problems I'll come and see what it looks like.
On Friday the chap came back to us and said he thought lime render would damage the bricks even more than they are just now. He also said he didn't think that the original render would have been lime. Would that be right on a solid walled house? He said he would put stainless steel mesh over and render with cement!????
I have searched for information on lime damaging spalled bricks but I haven't seen anything quite so badly spalled as ours.
Could you guys cast your eyes over these pictures and give me your thoughts please. We had to remove a section of cement render due to the downpipe having been cracked right in front of a cracked bit of render. When we removed the section of render that had in effect fallen off the wall anyway, half of the face of the bricks came away presumably due to frost damage. We didn't force any of the render away from the wall so this is all damage caused by the cement render. You can see how thick it is and how heavy it must be on the bricks.
Top of the wall next to the damaged downpipe:
http://naughtystep.wordpress.com/files/2007/10/dsc03016.jpg
Bottom corner of the wall showing the worst of the spalling/crumbling:
http://naughtystep.wordpress.com/files/2007/10/dsc03019.jpg
Top of the wall around the corner where bricks are missing:
http://naughtystep.wordpress.com/files/2007/10/dsc03015.jpg
Our plan was to replace missing bricks, re-point with lime mortar and re-render with lime render...hydraulic as has been advised earlier in this thread.
There's nothing wrong with your original plan. The cement contributed to the damage.
Don't be swayed by the opinions of the builder who knows best, and wants to use cement. Sadly, most are, hence the damage....
The lime render should act as a sacrificial coating, as it is much easier and cheaper to re-render than replace bricks or masonry.
The lime will soak up and release rain water, and protect the bricks beneath. Cement render will crack, let rain into the cracks and the only way for it to go is into the bricks. Eventually you'll get damp walls and crumbly bricks.
Imagine the effect of cement renders on timber frames - water gets diverted to the wood, and it rots away. Unfortunately 1000s of years worth of experience and knowledge has been all but lost with the advent of modern materials and building practices.
Find another builder!
Don't be swayed by the opinions of the builder who knows best, and wants to use cement. Sadly, most are, hence the damage....
The lime render should act as a sacrificial coating, as it is much easier and cheaper to re-render than replace bricks or masonry.
The lime will soak up and release rain water, and protect the bricks beneath. Cement render will crack, let rain into the cracks and the only way for it to go is into the bricks. Eventually you'll get damp walls and crumbly bricks.
Imagine the effect of cement renders on timber frames - water gets diverted to the wood, and it rots away. Unfortunately 1000s of years worth of experience and knowledge has been all but lost with the advent of modern materials and building practices.
Find another builder!
Wethertex UK
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I work for Wethertex UK and the information regarding our nylon fixings is not correct, this does not form the breathable element of our materials. The water vapour permeability is whats key to any coating, particularly in period properties of solid wall construction. Please feel free to contact me to discuss any element of coatings within the UK market and I will be happy to help.
Wethertex UK,
Thank you for your response but with respect your system is roughly £10k too expensive. Aside from the question of whether it will indeed stop condensation damp, I could have had my house externally insulated and re-rendered for a lot less money than the estimate from your company.
A claim to stop penetrating damp is of no use to us because we don't have penetrating damp and when we did it was because the water had nowhere to go except into the house. Removing the cement render has fixed that particular problem. What we have is condesation due to the cold which is soon to be rectified by installing a rayburn and some decent sized radiators.
Having sought an unbiased opinion, it's clear to me that the kindest thing for my house is to re-render it with the material it was designed to be covered with...i.e. lime. Nothing will convince me otherwise now.
Thank you for your response but with respect your system is roughly £10k too expensive. Aside from the question of whether it will indeed stop condensation damp, I could have had my house externally insulated and re-rendered for a lot less money than the estimate from your company.
A claim to stop penetrating damp is of no use to us because we don't have penetrating damp and when we did it was because the water had nowhere to go except into the house. Removing the cement render has fixed that particular problem. What we have is condesation due to the cold which is soon to be rectified by installing a rayburn and some decent sized radiators.
Having sought an unbiased opinion, it's clear to me that the kindest thing for my house is to re-render it with the material it was designed to be covered with...i.e. lime. Nothing will convince me otherwise now.
Nemesis
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Brilliant!!
Myabe the firm concerned should read this book:
http://periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8905
In fact so should everyone with a period building, because so much of what it says applies to more than just Welsh vernacular buildings.
Myabe the firm concerned should read this book:
http://periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8905
In fact so should everyone with a period building, because so much of what it says applies to more than just Welsh vernacular buildings.
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