I'm 34, bought our c.1700 forge when I was 30 and my partner was 29, neither of us work in a bank! Like Matt progress is slow and the list of to do job is as long as both arms and then some! But we work our way through gradually ourselves, currently we are ce plastering the internal faces of the exterior walls in lime to replace cement tanking on the bottom 3 feet . Lots of plaster in hair, ears etc!
- Thread starter parkview094
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I'm 34, bought our c.1700 forge when I was 30 and my partner was 29, neither of us work in a bank! Like Matt progress is slow and the list of to do job is as long as both arms and then some! But we work our way through gradually ourselves, currently we are ce plastering the internal faces of the exterior walls in lime to replace cement tanking on the bottom 3 feet . Lots of plaster in hair, ears etc!
paulb33
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TheForge said:
Indeed. I suspect many of us are on here because we enjoy this stuff. Not, because we enjoy pouring cash into moneypits...
Matt Green
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paulb33 said:
Well made, and entirely true. Certainly wooden windows in the newly built extension is wise expenditure, but does money need to be spent on reinstatement of existing functional items now or would Parkview094* be better served waiting for them to warrant functional rather than aesthetic replacement?
"It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got"
Sheryl Crow
plasticpigeon said:
Deficit spending? Buying a house before 1997? And I can only relate and agree with the rest.
*edit: got confused.
plasticpigeon
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I'm keeping my windows Matt, my problem is wanting to restore too much!!! It is Parkview that is in the dilemma. My budget for windows is glue sweat and paint!
jocelyn plummer
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Yes, I caught \kirstie's lecture---agree with her entirely, especially in the context of that house.
However, Parkview094 has already inherited the pesky windows and is looking for an affordable to his pocket solution--I will be interested to se how this thread develops.
However, Parkview094 has already inherited the pesky windows and is looking for an affordable to his pocket solution--I will be interested to se how this thread develops.
paulb33
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jocelyn plummer said:
"Affordable to his pocket solution"? That would be NOT building an extension on the side of Parkview094's lovely period house (in a conservation area). Or, moving to a house that better suits his needs. Or, finding 10k elsewhere in his budget to pay for wooden windows. Or, using my guys to knock 10k off the price.... :lol:
Yes, I have a polarised view on this stuff. :twisted:
Paul
parkview094
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oh my oh my!
I can't believe I've just written the longest imaginable post, hit preview, been asked to log in and lost the lot! Oh well, here goes - take 2!
In an attempt to bring the thread back on topic, my gripe is with the planning process and not questioning whether we should be using PVCu or wooden windows! I'm frustrated at the fact we appear to be being penalised for attempting to follow the correct procedure and working closely with the various local authorities, heritage officer and civic society. When I questioned the heritage officer of why we were not allowed PVCu when others were, I was told that this was purely because the other applications had not crossed her desk. PVCu windows continue to be allowed and permitted by other developments because people are less dilligent with their planning. Having mulled over this overnight and from the comments on here, I am now more determined than ever to submit an application for using plastic windows and to fight any rejection. My hope is not necessarily that we will be granted permission, but that it will hopefully ensure that any future applications within the conservation area are treated fairly and equally. If we are unsuccessful, it will hopefully stop the swathe of unsympathetic and poorly detailed plastic that's going into so many of our neighbours.
Whether you agree with our proposed use of PVCu or not, it is undoubtedly an improvement over what we currently have. We have taken considerable time and care to research windows which are constructed using the techniques of original windows and are scaled and detailed sympathetically to the wood we would have originally have had. From a purist approach, I'm not convinced modern wood windows are a great solution either. "Stuck-On" Georgian bars and the super flat/mirror finish of double glazing will never look as good or authentic as the original individual-pane single glazed units. Although we're in a conservation area, surely one would not propose putting pure original windows back. We're not listed and we're not of any great national architectural importance. Any practical solution is therefore surely a compromise. Had we had the original oak windows, we certainly would not be proposing to replace them, but we can't account for the poor decisions made by the previous owner. In their wisdom, for example, they replaced the roof using modern bright red concrete tiles. Part of our proposed extension includes a roof facing the highway; surely one would not advocate replacing the whole roof with original clay tiles which would undoubtedly look better.
On our plans and extensions:
Oakleigh is our family home not a museum. We live in a conservation area, not a restoration area and it is our intention to preserve and enhance the original detailing we have. To my mind, this does not mean a period property should never be extended or adapted for modern living. There are a few priorities that are important to us for our home. My wifes sister, for example, has limited mobility and we have no WC downstairs she can access. We got married last year and it is our hope to start a family in our new home. For a 4/5 bed house, we just don't feel it practical for a family with a single bathroom. We are fortunate enough to have a beautiful paneled drawing room which we don't want to detract from with a modern TV. We, like most people however, would like somewhere to be able to relax and catch up on a bit of Kirstie and Phil! You may not agree with these, but they are important characteristics for us. This does not mean we should have bought a 'modern box' of a house. We live in Romford, within the London commuter belt, not an unspoiled section of idyllic village life. The local civic society is having to fight applications for gold tipped gates and lions at the end of drives. We are fortunate enough to have been able to afford this house, but are not well-off enough to be able to throw money at it with no regard for return on investment. If we were to loose our jobs, we need the security of knowing we have the option of selling up and at least recouping some of our investment. We could easily throw £100k at the house 'restoring' it to it's original condition, but this would certainly not be money recouped. Of the 4 of "our house" in the street, 2 have been modernised beyond all recognition, 1 is er... "original" and ours sits somewhere in between. We have taken great lengths to research the local area, worked closely with the civic society, participated in forums on the internet such as these and chosen an architect with a background in historic buildings for our extension. I am certain that had we not purchased this house, any alternative buyer would not have put the care and consideration into changes that we are. The proposed extension I feel is sympathetic to the original design of the building and in no-way detracts from it's architecture and original features. As to why we are proposing an extension at this time.. There were 2 major areas we knew we would need to address when we purchased the house. The roof where the ridge tiles are all unsecure and the render which was wrongly applied. Both of these have the potential, if left unchecked, to damage the fabric and structural integrity of the house and so are our top 2 priorities. We are in a position whereby we have a pot of money we can spend at the moment which should just about cover the building works being proposed. I am loath to replace the render now only to extend at some point in the future and have to try and match up the renders or worse still, replace the lot again. Similarly with regards to the windows, it seems prudent to address these at the same time as the render. If we can save £10k on windows, this is money we can use to address the next important items on the list like addressing the fact that the whole kitchen is wired on a 20amp spur!
We will make many changes to the house over the years hopefully. I'm sure we will have good debate on PP as not everyone will agree with our decisions. I am not, for example, proposing to replace the corroded lead water-main with a new lead system. Nor are we going to chase out the pipes to reinstate the gas lamp points in the bedrooms. I have, however, had all the original internal ironmongery restored. We will be trying to source an original period fireplace to replace the B&Q affair in the dining room. We are trying to find sympathetic tiles to restore the fireplace in the lounge. I hope to remove the carpet and restore the quarry tile floor in the lobby. I hope most people would agree that the changes we make will preserve and enhance our house with the spirit and ethos of the original garden suburb. To quote from the "Book of the House & Cottage Exhibition of 1911" foreward entitled "Houses to Live In": "...the inconvenience and discomfort of the Victorian houses are gone. Here are a hundred new ideas that make for economy in upkeep, that save domestic labour, or lessen the need for repairs. The modern house must be pleasant to live in as well as pleasant to look at."
Feedback on our changes and suggestions are always welcome. A second opinion and voice of reason is always good food for thought. Long may the debates rage!
paulb: I'm sure we'll end up having to implement wooden windows and so as such any recommendations for supplies would be most welcome.
For those interested in following more of my ramblings and our very slow progress, the blog is available at: http://oakleigh.gowans.org . It's woefully out-of-date at the moment, but I hope to bring it up-to-date this week with such exciting developments and my finding an original 1911 copy of the exhbition catalogue and finding a grave in the back garden!
I can't believe I've just written the longest imaginable post, hit preview, been asked to log in and lost the lot! Oh well, here goes - take 2!
In an attempt to bring the thread back on topic, my gripe is with the planning process and not questioning whether we should be using PVCu or wooden windows! I'm frustrated at the fact we appear to be being penalised for attempting to follow the correct procedure and working closely with the various local authorities, heritage officer and civic society. When I questioned the heritage officer of why we were not allowed PVCu when others were, I was told that this was purely because the other applications had not crossed her desk. PVCu windows continue to be allowed and permitted by other developments because people are less dilligent with their planning. Having mulled over this overnight and from the comments on here, I am now more determined than ever to submit an application for using plastic windows and to fight any rejection. My hope is not necessarily that we will be granted permission, but that it will hopefully ensure that any future applications within the conservation area are treated fairly and equally. If we are unsuccessful, it will hopefully stop the swathe of unsympathetic and poorly detailed plastic that's going into so many of our neighbours.
Whether you agree with our proposed use of PVCu or not, it is undoubtedly an improvement over what we currently have. We have taken considerable time and care to research windows which are constructed using the techniques of original windows and are scaled and detailed sympathetically to the wood we would have originally have had. From a purist approach, I'm not convinced modern wood windows are a great solution either. "Stuck-On" Georgian bars and the super flat/mirror finish of double glazing will never look as good or authentic as the original individual-pane single glazed units. Although we're in a conservation area, surely one would not propose putting pure original windows back. We're not listed and we're not of any great national architectural importance. Any practical solution is therefore surely a compromise. Had we had the original oak windows, we certainly would not be proposing to replace them, but we can't account for the poor decisions made by the previous owner. In their wisdom, for example, they replaced the roof using modern bright red concrete tiles. Part of our proposed extension includes a roof facing the highway; surely one would not advocate replacing the whole roof with original clay tiles which would undoubtedly look better.
On our plans and extensions:
Oakleigh is our family home not a museum. We live in a conservation area, not a restoration area and it is our intention to preserve and enhance the original detailing we have. To my mind, this does not mean a period property should never be extended or adapted for modern living. There are a few priorities that are important to us for our home. My wifes sister, for example, has limited mobility and we have no WC downstairs she can access. We got married last year and it is our hope to start a family in our new home. For a 4/5 bed house, we just don't feel it practical for a family with a single bathroom. We are fortunate enough to have a beautiful paneled drawing room which we don't want to detract from with a modern TV. We, like most people however, would like somewhere to be able to relax and catch up on a bit of Kirstie and Phil! You may not agree with these, but they are important characteristics for us. This does not mean we should have bought a 'modern box' of a house. We live in Romford, within the London commuter belt, not an unspoiled section of idyllic village life. The local civic society is having to fight applications for gold tipped gates and lions at the end of drives. We are fortunate enough to have been able to afford this house, but are not well-off enough to be able to throw money at it with no regard for return on investment. If we were to loose our jobs, we need the security of knowing we have the option of selling up and at least recouping some of our investment. We could easily throw £100k at the house 'restoring' it to it's original condition, but this would certainly not be money recouped. Of the 4 of "our house" in the street, 2 have been modernised beyond all recognition, 1 is er... "original" and ours sits somewhere in between. We have taken great lengths to research the local area, worked closely with the civic society, participated in forums on the internet such as these and chosen an architect with a background in historic buildings for our extension. I am certain that had we not purchased this house, any alternative buyer would not have put the care and consideration into changes that we are. The proposed extension I feel is sympathetic to the original design of the building and in no-way detracts from it's architecture and original features. As to why we are proposing an extension at this time.. There were 2 major areas we knew we would need to address when we purchased the house. The roof where the ridge tiles are all unsecure and the render which was wrongly applied. Both of these have the potential, if left unchecked, to damage the fabric and structural integrity of the house and so are our top 2 priorities. We are in a position whereby we have a pot of money we can spend at the moment which should just about cover the building works being proposed. I am loath to replace the render now only to extend at some point in the future and have to try and match up the renders or worse still, replace the lot again. Similarly with regards to the windows, it seems prudent to address these at the same time as the render. If we can save £10k on windows, this is money we can use to address the next important items on the list like addressing the fact that the whole kitchen is wired on a 20amp spur!
We will make many changes to the house over the years hopefully. I'm sure we will have good debate on PP as not everyone will agree with our decisions. I am not, for example, proposing to replace the corroded lead water-main with a new lead system. Nor are we going to chase out the pipes to reinstate the gas lamp points in the bedrooms. I have, however, had all the original internal ironmongery restored. We will be trying to source an original period fireplace to replace the B&Q affair in the dining room. We are trying to find sympathetic tiles to restore the fireplace in the lounge. I hope to remove the carpet and restore the quarry tile floor in the lobby. I hope most people would agree that the changes we make will preserve and enhance our house with the spirit and ethos of the original garden suburb. To quote from the "Book of the House & Cottage Exhibition of 1911" foreward entitled "Houses to Live In": "...the inconvenience and discomfort of the Victorian houses are gone. Here are a hundred new ideas that make for economy in upkeep, that save domestic labour, or lessen the need for repairs. The modern house must be pleasant to live in as well as pleasant to look at."
Feedback on our changes and suggestions are always welcome. A second opinion and voice of reason is always good food for thought. Long may the debates rage!
paulb: I'm sure we'll end up having to implement wooden windows and so as such any recommendations for supplies would be most welcome.
For those interested in following more of my ramblings and our very slow progress, the blog is available at: http://oakleigh.gowans.org . It's woefully out-of-date at the moment, but I hope to bring it up-to-date this week with such exciting developments and my finding an original 1911 copy of the exhbition catalogue and finding a grave in the back garden!
paulb33
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A lot of points well made, ParkView. How many windows are we talking?
Paul
Paul
parkview094
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paulb33 said:
I always struggle with the definition of a window!
How many windows in a bay for example? Based on the quotes we've received, it seems the consensus of opinion is 28 paulb33
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28? The quote you have for moulded uPVC seems remarkably low.
If you're determined to go with plastic (have I said how bonkers that is?) then have a window made to show how nice it looks and use it to lobby your conservation officer. Or, just do it.
Did you make a decision on re-rendering with insulation?
Paul
If you're determined to go with plastic (have I said how bonkers that is?) then have a window made to show how nice it looks and use it to lobby your conservation officer. Or, just do it.
Did you make a decision on re-rendering with insulation?
Paul
parkview094
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Those quotes are supply only - no fit. We're quite fortunate to have a distributor for the R9 by use who usually are normally trade only but have agreed to sell to us.
I've driven the civic society round to the show-room to show them the windows, but I think the Heritage officer is going to be a harder nut to crack (not that I blame them of course). If push comes to shove, we'll go wood - but I'd like everyone to be treated equally under the guidelines..
Using insulated render was crazy expensive and ugly too in the end, so we're going to go with the regular stuff. I still need to drill a hole in the wall to figure out whether we have solid walls and need to explore lime, or if we have a cavity and can stick with concrete. We're facing the fact that it'll never be a 'warm' house and we can just install a super-efficient boiler and leave it on all the time :lol:
I've driven the civic society round to the show-room to show them the windows, but I think the Heritage officer is going to be a harder nut to crack (not that I blame them of course). If push comes to shove, we'll go wood - but I'd like everyone to be treated equally under the guidelines..
Using insulated render was crazy expensive and ugly too in the end, so we're going to go with the regular stuff. I still need to drill a hole in the wall to figure out whether we have solid walls and need to explore lime, or if we have a cavity and can stick with concrete. We're facing the fact that it'll never be a 'warm' house and we can just install a super-efficient boiler and leave it on all the time :lol:
Just a couple of points:
You mention nasty red concrete tiles.
Someone did the same to our little house and although they've weathered to a more acceptable colour, they're still going to have to be replaced. Not for aesthetic reasons but because of their weight - the original roof timbers couldn't cope, and the loft contains a spidersweb of supporting struts, without which the whole roof would have collapsed long ago.
And, regarding the age of PPUKers, those of us who are well over 40 were young once upon a time, and coping with a limited income + small children + pets + no indoor sanitation...... And that strange form of insanity that makes us do it all again when circumstances mean that we have to move, and we fall for yet another house in need of tender, loving, backbreaking care.
Be warned - it will happen to you, too!
You mention nasty red concrete tiles.
Someone did the same to our little house and although they've weathered to a more acceptable colour, they're still going to have to be replaced. Not for aesthetic reasons but because of their weight - the original roof timbers couldn't cope, and the loft contains a spidersweb of supporting struts, without which the whole roof would have collapsed long ago.
And, regarding the age of PPUKers, those of us who are well over 40 were young once upon a time, and coping with a limited income + small children + pets + no indoor sanitation...... And that strange form of insanity that makes us do it all again when circumstances mean that we have to move, and we fall for yet another house in need of tender, loving, backbreaking care.
Be warned - it will happen to you, too!
parkview094
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Moo said:
Oh that's an interesting point you raise that I hadn't previously considered. The whole re-roof of the house was an unbelievable bodge job. It's like a reference check-list of things not to do. My personal favourite is the garage, which has been converted to a room, but where the roof stops short of the walls - meaning the tops of the bricks are exposed to the elements and weather with the rather unsurprising consequence that the top of the walls are soaking wet. I don't think any effort has been made at all to strengthen the roof timbers, but I wonder if this in it's-self is a problem. I'm rather hoping this is something the surveyor would have pointed out when we bought the house if cause for alarm..
Moo said:
...still got a good few years till I get to the big 4-0 yet. :wink: (Youth of today eh? Plastic windows?!? unbelievable :wink
paulb33
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parkview094 said:
I think you can do much better on the wood prices.....if you want to. Send me a private note with photos, drawings or plans of the windows and I can get you a ballpark for supplied and fitted in softwood and hardwood.
Take care that your judgement isn't being compromised by a 'unique' opportunity with the local distributor. Its easy to get seduced by a special deal and see everyting through this lens. You still have to find a fitter, who'll need a sizeable margin to break the normal supplier tie-in. Then, there's the question of warranty etc.
As regards consistency of the guidelines: "the only constant is change". These Edwardian houses are now held in higher regard (mercifully) and its appropriate they're now being appropriately conserved.
Of course, do the right thing for you and your family.
Paul