PVCu Windows and Planning

[parkview094]

I realise I'm in the wrong place for a sympathetic ear with regards to struggling for planning consent for PVCu Windows - but the procedure is baffling me here!

We live in an Article 4 protected property. The last owner took it upon themselves to replace most of the original oak windows with a horrible storm-proof PVCu affair. We've had planning approved for a modest extension and were originally hoping to re-instate the wood windows throughout and use wood in the new build.

Unfortunately, the quotes we've had for wood are proving cost prohibitive so we've been trying to find a plan b. I stumbled across the http://www.residence9.co.uk/ system, which in my mind would be a vast improvement over what we have today. I subsequently spoke to the council to find out whether we could modify our application to replace the current PVCu with these and use these in the new build. Their response has surprised me for 2 reasons:

1. I'm told that this would not be "non-material amendment" but instead would need a full planning resubmission. I'm finding the definitions of a "non-material amendment" very vague, so I suspect I'll just have to agree with the council on this.

2. I'm told that the use of PVCu would likely be rejected. I asked, as a compromise, whether we could use wood in the front to enhance the street-scene, but use the R9 system on the rear/sides away from the passing public. This got my question referred to the local Heritage officer who has said no PVCu anywhere. Not front, not back - nowhere in the conservation area. I've since found 3 planning applications for similar Article4 protected properties in our street that have had the use of PVCu approved (either in the front or rear) within the last 12 months, so called the Heritage officer for a chat. She's advised that unfortunately these other 3 applications hadn't crossed her desk, but had they done - they wouldn't have been approved.

So now we're in a dilema. People often talk about a planning president, but does this actually exist? I'm tempted to submit an application for wood in the front and PCVu elsewhere and appeal if it's rejected to see how it plays out - but I'm conscious this is just likely to get everybody off-side.. Any thoughts / suggestions? Do we just have to start saving?

M

 

[paulb33]

Unfortunately, the quotes we've had for wood are proving cost prohibitive

Where do we start here? :roll:

Firstly, cost: How much are you really saving with these plastic windows? I've saved for 10 years to replace my uPVC with wood. 33 windows for 30k (glazed, painted & installed). I dont imagine Residence 9 would be much cheaper. And are you prepared to replace them in 8 years time? I reckon that's possibly the life of a specialist, moulded, coloured plastic window, containing a DG unit.

Secondly, aesthetics. There's only one thing worse than uPVC windows in my book. uPVC windows with a woodgrain finish. Save your cash and paint the uPVC that you've got. :roll:

Thirdly, house valuation. Anyone catch Kirsty Allsop ranting last night about the effect uPVC has on the price of a period building?

Sorry not to be more help. But, what you propose is a false economy.

Paul

 

[plasticpigeon]

If everyone on my road who has installed revolting cheap plastic windows installed residence 9 type plastic windows it would transform the road. Don't be too hard Paul!!!! Also I have seen my fair share of horrendous modern wooden windows. I think the design is more important than material in many cases. I have often thought how great it would be if PVC sashes could be made that genuinely looked like the originals, as it would transform the look of our cities if they could be made competitive on price. I am not minded to go down that route myself, but faced with replacing all my windows, I might consider it!

Parkview, what would the cost saving actually be???

 

[paulb33]

I am not minded to go down that route myself, but faced with replacing all my windows, I might consider it!

Parkview, what would the cost saving actually be???

Wood grain uPVC? Really? It hit a nerve, I'm sorry. Looking through my red mist, I'm being hard because I can't believe this complex plasticwork would save money over timber frames. Certainly not if you factor in longevity and house value.

I apologise again for not being more supportive.

 

[plasticpigeon]

If it is 50% of the price, I might, I don't know, the logical side of me would be wanting to anyway. I agree wood grain effect is a bit naff as wooden windows when made and painted properly don't show the grain so i don't know why it would be a good thing on plastic windows!!!!

Where I live wooden windows devalue a house, most people are idiots though. I must be an idiot too as I feel that most people are richer than me and probably more content than I am, so i obviously haven't sussed out how to maximise my income find peace with my present, or prepare well for my future. Spending lots of money doing up a cheap house in Birmingham is probably a good example the bad decision making I persist with.

 

[parkview094]

Oh dear - this is running of on a tangent I hadn't hoped..

I think the arguments for PVCu vs. Wood are largely religious.. My personal view is that I wouldn't replace wood with PVCu, but replacing PVCu with PVCu is one of those compromises in life I'd be prepared to live with. We're looking at white frames and from any sensible distance, I think the newer PVCu products in white look very much the same as a white painted wood frame.

Here's an example of where in my personal opinion, the PVCu doesn't look terrible:

. In practice, I think double glazing detracts more from the original look rather than the actual frames themselves.. But that's all by the by..

Cost differential is approximately £14k for Residence9 vs £27k for Scandinavian Redwood vs. £33k for hardwood.

 

[paulb33]

Oh dear - this is running of on a tangent I hadn't hoped..

I think the arguments for PVCu vs. Wood are largely religious.. My personal view is that I wouldn't replace wood with PVCu, but replacing PVCu with PVCu is one of those compromises in life I'd be prepared to live with. We're looking at white frames and from any sensible distance, I think the newer PVCu products in white look very much the same as a white painted wood frame.

Here's an example of where in my personal opinion, the PVCu doesn't look terrible:

. In practice, I think double glazing detracts more from the original look rather than the actual frames themselves.. But that's all by the by..

Cost differential is approximately £14k for Residence9 vs £27k for Scandinavian Redwood vs. £33k for hardwood.

13k? Wait a year and spend 30k. Sell a kidney. Don't do it for the sake of 13k.

 

[88v8]

Various things annoy me about plastic windows... the clumsiness of them, the float glass, and the fact that they're all white... other than woodgrain which occasionally doesn't look too bad.
I regret very much the loss of the colourful street scenes we enjoyed pre-plastic.

In Portugal in 98 and in Madeira in 03, we saw plastic windows and French doors, not clumsy, and two -tone green & cream.
Presumably other colours are available.

Why not over here?

Ivor

 

[paulb33]

Your blog shows a lovely house with black windows on the front and they look original. Are these staying?

And, what did you decide about the interior woodpanelling? Did you paint it?

Paul

 

[parkview094]

Your blog shows a lovely house with black windows on the front and they look original. Are these staying?

And, what did you decide about the interior woodpanelling? Did you paint it?

Paul

Oh wow! People actually read that! I'm woefully behind on the updates - will sort that out this week

We have 5 original Wood windows left - 4 small on the side of the house each side of the chimney and 1 to the front under the porch. 4 of those will be staying (1 will unavoidably be lost to the extension). All the other black windows are "storm-proof" PVCu. Our personal preference is for white... there's an old photo of the house from the 70s showing the house with white windows and we prefer the look. I'm also reasonably confident that white was the original colour too...

Our temporary insanity for contemplating painting the wood panelling has thankfully passed. It's staying as it is.. flooring is still being debated though

 

[paulb33]

Your blog shows a lovely house with black windows on the front and they look original. Are these staying?

And, what did you decide about the interior woodpanelling? Did you paint it?

Paul

Oh wow! People actually read that! I'm woefully behind on the updates - will sort that out this week

We have 5 original Wood windows left - 4 small on the side of the house each side of the chimney and 1 to the front under the porch. 4 of those will be staying (1 will unavoidably be lost to the extension). All the other black windows are "storm-proof" PVCu. Our personal preference is for white... there's an old photo of the house from the 70s showing the house with white windows and we prefer the look. I'm also reasonably confident that white was the original colour too...

Our temporary insanity for contemplating painting the wood panelling has thankfully passed. It's staying as it is.. flooring is still being debated though

Let's hope this insanity goes the same way. :wink:

Sorry, I'm being mean. How much would you pay for wooden windows?

 

[malcolm]

My architect mentioned planners are becoming more restrictive in what they will allow as non-material amendments so it's probably normal (if not sensible) that they want another application. Don't think you'll get around that but you could apply. Precedents are something you could discuss in an appeal to that new application, but the council will be keen to avoid setting a precedent allowing uPVC in conservation areas. Is it an option to fit a lovely expensive wood window in the extension and leave the rest as they are for now? Even if replacing existing windows is mentioned in the application there is no timescale for completing the work.

Windows are tricky these days. The new build next door was required to fit wooden windows (conservation area). But they look exactly like uPVC with fat and flat frames etc which is no advantage to uPVC at all. Are the alternative wood windows you are considering nice looking?

I'm lucky here that my place was neglected for years and didn't get the windows upgraded (all apart from 2 upstairs are original).

 

[parkview094]

It is certainly allowable to keep the PVCu in the existing house and use wood for the new bits. This is also acceptable to the planners too which is ironic as the existing windows are storm-proof black and we are proposing flush-casement white. From a street-scene perspective I think this would look the worst of all worlds!

In reality, we'd rather avoid doing this as we also need to re-render the house. I'm keen to do this only once if possible and I'm not convinced we could replace windows at a later stage without damaging the render .

With respect to the design/suitability of wooden replacements, that's a whole can of worms we haven't yet opened! Indeed, I am keen to ensure any windows we use match the dimensions of the few remaining original wooden windows we have. There are 32 houses in our street which are protected under Article 4. 8 Still have their original windows, 22 have UPVC and 2 have unsympathetic (was going to use a different adjective) replacement wood windows. I'm keen to avoid making that 3..

 

[paulb33]

13k seems a small %ge of your overall spend here (easy for me to say.....). How many windows are we talking? What would be an acceptable price for wooden windows? I know a man, who knows a man... 8)
Paul

 

[paulb33]

Where I live wooden windows devalue a house.

Is that really the case, PP? Even compared to wooded framed double glazing?

 

[malcolm]

I must be an idiot too as I feel that most people are richer than me and probably more content than I am, so i obviously haven't sussed out how to maximise my income find peace with my present, or prepare well for my future. Spending lots of money doing up a cheap house in Birmingham is probably a good example the bad decision making I persist with.

Don't get depressed - there are systematic issues with property prices in the UK, mostly associated with propping up the economy. I suspect there are no members on here under 40 years old. Under 40s will still be in shared student style accommodation or living with parents. I chose to be an engineer because it looked interesting. Many of my friends became bankers. I'm around 40 and have gone through the same thoughts but DIY is the answer.

How many windows do you have parkview094? I'm refusing to pay more than £1k per really nice wood window, and others on here seem to have found them for less. Could you link again to your blog.

 

[Matt Green]

I suspect there are no members on here under 40 years old.

Hi. 8)

Under 40s will still be in shared student style accommodation or living with parents.

Well it's a 2 bed c1898 mid-terrace with a fix-list as long as my arm, and most of it belongs to a lender, but I don't have to share a bathroom.

It's just a different world view from this end of the forum. I can't spend £2000 on curtains or railings, for example. I spent most of last summer up a scaffold with a needle gun removing plasticised masonry paint and applying something more breathable. I removed 2 skips of concrete from the garden with a 6lb sledge the summer before to reduce the ground levels because the dining room floor had sunk badly when we bought it (two previous buyers had pulled out after survey). The boiler rattles. The entire ground floor is covered in sand and cement plaster. The lounge has the nastiest laminate floor imaginable. There is no carpet in the dining room. I have a uPVC front door. I don't work for a bank.

My windows are uPVC and they work: they don't mist up and they open and shut. I'm not replacing something that works when I've got a house full of structural and functional components that do not. £14K for replacements? A relative would need to die for it to even be a consideration. £33K? Two relatives.

I'm working out if I relay the dining room floorboards this year, maybe sand and coat it.

I don't post much, but the pictures are inspiring and the banter is good.

 

[paulb33]

My windows are uPVC and they work: they don't mist up and they open and shut. I'm not replacing something that works when I've got a house full of structural and functional components that do not. £14K for replacements?

Neither should you replace them, Matt. At issue here, is that 15k is being spent on plastic windows (and 100k on an extension too, I would guess). Point is, if you DO have the money, then spend it wisely. That applies whether its 50 quid hiring a needle gun (rather than 30 quid on plastic paint) or 20k on wooden windows (rather than 14k on uPVC).

In other words: "Never look at an ugly thing twice. It is fatally easy to get accustomed to corrupting influences." C.F.A. Voysey

 

[plasticpigeon]

In my city, unless the house is expensive and in a very nice area, original wooden windows devalue a house, and replacement wooden double glazing will not make it more valuable than one with the cheapest plastic as it is perceived as needing more work, ie they will need painting. I've seen people with very nice Edwardian and Victorian properties change the windows immediately before putting the place on the market. Every time a house near me that has not been modernised is sold, the first thing to happen is the windows get replaced with the cheapest plastic. Pride in ones surroundings takes a distant second place to ease of life and minimum expenditure. I have even been told that I am putting too much effort and money into my place as it i will not realise a financial return if i sell it. The idea that I am trying to make my immediate environment interesting and attractive seem like utter lunacy to most. If Buckingham palace was in Birmingham it would probably be demolished by now, but if not it would definitely have plastic windows and doors. The standard of building work near me is also generally appalling.Here is an example from this week.

Malcolm, I too am an engineer, and I am younger than 40 though not by a long way. The company i work for is quite innovative, and I do quite a specialist job so i suppose I shouldn't moan. I do look around me though and wonder how people get to be financially speaking so much better off. Strangely most of my most educated friends are quite poor. The ones that aren't work in finance, but most work in science and engineering.

 

[paulb33]

Oh, that's a depressing photo PP.