PVC windows are best (alledgedly)

[OLDCOLLIER]

Still can't find that particular article, the one I mentioned above. I thought it was associated with THIS company

http://www.masterframe.co.uk/

and still have a feeling it was, but can't find it now so perhaps it's another.

I should warn you guys to take something before looking at this site, and call your counsellor before reading their 'Conservation' guide because it'll take you some time to get over the post-traumatic stress.

Oh, and I'm a 65-year old joiner who specialises in old buildings and spends most of his time repairing, restoring, and replacing/replicating sash windows, the last job - of eight windows - confirmed by EH as early 18th century. I mention that in case you think I'm a upvc terrorist throwing a grenade into your coffee shop.

 

[Ian Bond]

Personally, I do worry about failing units - I don't want to have to shell out money to replace an element of the building that should last centuries (accidents with footballs excepted).


More on the pvc-u topic ...

http://www.building.co.uk/sustain_story.asp?sectioncode=331&storycode=3121531&c=3

 

[skier-hughes]

Personally, I do worry about failing units - I don't want to have to shell out money to replace an element of the building that should last centuries (accidents with footballs excepted).


More on the pvc-u topic ...

http://www.building.co.uk/sustain_story.asp?sectioncode=331&storycode=3121531&c=3

Well yes you need to worry about them, but not in the context of whether PVCu is greener than wood, as unless someone can find data that says DG units fail quicker in PVCu then it isn't an arguement in this case is it?

 

[Ian Bond]

True.

I was studiously avoiding the mention of DG in this thread for the very reason that it would confuse the issue.

 

[skier-hughes]

Wooden windows can be repaired and will last several lifetimes, whereas DG will fail eventually (sometimes in less than 10 yrs)....

It does confuse, as everyone here will associate PVCu with DG and wooden windows primarily with SG, so it was this piece that I was referring to.

 

[Flyfisher]

"But, since PVCu windows tend to be cheaper than timber, timber/aluminium composite and aluminium windows, the new rating will make it harder for us to argue the case against them to contractors and clients.”

That, I think, is the crux of the matter and largely explains the popularity of PVCu. It's also interesting to consider in the context of the proposition that money is proportional to energy. Oak windows might, at first glance, seem to be more sustainable and less energy-consuming, but if they cost more than PVCu where is all that additional money going to? I bet it ultimately gets spent on energy-consuming stuff.

 

[Nemesis]

Of course it does. Things like food and clothes and stuff maybe. Even winter fuel. We should buy plastic to stop ourselves from spending on something worse?

 

[Ian Bond]

Leaving money out of it for the moment [*], which is the most likely material to be sustainable?

PVC-U derived from a finite resource (given the length of time it took to create the stuff in the first place, and the rate we're using it up)

Or timber from properly managed forest. At least it's got a chance of growing back in a period that can be imagined on a human time-scale.

[*]Or neither, given the human capacity for greed and short term thinking.

 

[Flyfisher]

I think it depends on how narrow a view is taken of the whole thing. Given the choice of material A - renewable but energy-intensive, i.e. expensive - and material B - finite resource but low-energy = cheap - which material would have the least environmental impact? I suspect it would be the low-energy one, i.e. the cheaper material B. Perhaps we should better understand why PVCu windows are, apparently, cheaper than other alternatives before condemning them (on 'green' grounds, not aesthetic ones - for which I think they are the work of the devil).

I don't think the financial cost of things can be ignored so lightly. Rich nations consume more energy than poor ones (obviously) simply because they can afford to. Same with individuals. It's no good 'going green' by replacing expensive gas central heating with a cheap-to-run wood burner (for example) but then spend the money you've saved on other stuff. If you really want to reduce your energy consumption/eco-footprint then you actually have to spend less, which is of course completely at odds with our whole economic philosophy of continuous growth and is why governments around the world are currently in a state of near panic.

 

[biffvernon]

Don't forget that plastic windows just look crap.

 

[Nemesis]

They do indeed. And of course false economy as it's doubtful they will last as long as timber. But they seem (along with doors) to be seen as a disposable item now - I know a number of houses which are removing uPVC and replacing with - uPVC.

 

[Flyfisher]

Don't forget that plastic windows just look crap.

I entirely agree, but as it's a subjective judgement I guess there must be loads of people that would disagree.

I'm not entirely sure about PVCu "of course" being a false economy though. If they're cheaper to start with and require no maintenance during their (shorter) lifetime then the perhaps they can work out cheaper in the long run? Especially if you don't DIY and have to pay someone to repaint every few years. Or perhaps people just believe they will last forever and that's enough. Also, if you plan to move within 20 years why buy windows that may last 100 years or more yet put little of the extra price on the value of the property? That's also an 'economy' judgement.

I would never buy PVCu windows for the succinct reason that Biff has mentioned above, but we can't deny that millions do. I'm just curious why. The timber windows industry clearly needs some more powerful arguments on its side to convert all the PVCu customers out there.

 

[Nemesis]

“If you cannot learn to love real art; at least learn to hate sham art and reject it . . . because these are but the outward symbols of the poison that lies within them.”
William Morris

 

[plumbers mate]

Two comments made by people when I discussed the restoration of my victorian sash windows.....

1). "You're not getting the windows modernised then? I couldn't live without my new windows" -- a neighbour talking about her new plastic eyesores.

2)."I'm 72, why should I worry that uPVC doesn't last as long as wood? I'll be long gone by the time they need replacing" - a friend.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Two comments made by people when I discussed the restoration of my victorian sash windows.....

1). "You're not getting the windows modernised then? I couldn't live without my new windows" -- a neighbour talking about her new plastic eyesores.

2)."I'm 72, why should I worry that uPVC doesn't last as long as wood? I'll be long gone by the time they need replacing" - a friend.

Sometimes there just aren't enough bullets in the world.

Merry Christmas

 

[DaveBrigg]

Of the new housing that's being completed locally, the expensive 'executive' properties with four bedrooms and stone features all have wooden windows. Even the conservatory I've seen has a wooden frame. (All double glazed of course). The builders obviously feel that the extra cost of using wood will be recouped in the higher price they are able to charge as a result. As a new build though, they would have been able to buy off the shelf, redusing costs.
I suspect that most of the conversion to UPVC is because the owners want double-glazing, and can only afford the cheaper plastic option. I've never seen a marketing campaign for wooden double-glazed windows, so it may be that a lack of knowledge makes the problem worse.

 

[biffvernon]

“If you cannot learn to love real art; at least learn to hate sham art and reject it . . . because these are but the outward symbols of the poison that lies within them.”
William Morris

Morris and Co never specified uPVC.

My local plastic window factory has gone down to a four day week. Silver lining on the recessionary cloud.

 

[Ian Bond]

The ASA tell me that they're taking the matter up with the British Plastics Federation (BPF) under a formal investigation procedure. (as opposed to a casual chat down the pub I suppose).

The BPF will be asked to comment on my complaint and send evidence to support their claims.

The ASA say

We will be investigating whether the ad gave a misleading impression of the environmental credentials of PVC-U windows.

A draft recommendation will be produced, referred to me for comment then passed to the ASA Council for adjudication.

In the meantime, if the BPF opt to change their ad in a way that resolves my complaint** then the case will be closed with no further action.

Will be interesting to see how efficiently and quickly my complaint is squashed. I mean dealt with.
:roll:

Ian

** I can't see how they'd do that without committing commercial suicide, but there you go.

 

[Cloudscape]

I wondered what happened to scrap uPVC (rigid PVC), since recycling would be part of being green. There are some interesting links, some making it sound as though the recycling process is already well established (and/or being a little vague).

Example (not singled out):
http://www.conservatoryoutlet.co.uk/blog/category/upvc-recycling

One of the uPVC recyclers, saying that manufacturers must back up their 'eco' claims:
http://www.dekura.co.uk/pages/news/dek050.html

Anti-PVC statement from the US:
http://www.healthybuilding.net/pvc/facts.html

Can uPVC be recycled?
http://www.cheresources.com/questions/the_environment-164.html

PVC as an example of a polymer that is difficult to recycle:
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/recycling-polymers/recycling.php

Where am I going with this? Nowhere, really. I was just interested. Locally, a guy decided that a bonfire was the best way to recycle his uPVC windows. A cloud of dense black smoke covered the village. People started experiencing breathing problems, sore throats and watering eyes. He didn't respond to reason, I'm told, but the bonfire did respond to the fireman's hose. :wink: I imagine those windows are in landfill somewhere now.

 

[biffvernon]

The ASA tell me ...

I got that letter too. I'm not holding my breath.

Regarding recycling, it seems that the global finanial situation has put an end to much of the plastics recycling trade, so anything that was written more than a few weeks ago on this subject is to be treated with caution.