PVC windows are best (alledgedly)

[biffvernon]

In the Housing Association magazine, page 42, http://www.wavcoms.co.uk/view/ha/issue/1060/ there is an advert from The British Plastics Federation that says "It's a fact that when it comes to window frames there is no more environmentally friendly material available than PVC-U. The BRE Green Guide rated PVC-U windows as A+ for comercial projects -that's as good as it gets!"?

I have submitted a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority claiming that the claim is misleading.

The BRE Green Guide is online at http://www.thegreenguide.org.uk/ and has already come in for serious criticsm by the Good Homes Alliance at http://www.goodhomes.org.uk/news/111

The Complaints Executive, Laura Edwards, has replied saying
"You mention in your complaint that you find the ad misleading, but have not stated your reasons. We need a stronger basis of complaint from you in order to decide if it needs investigating further or not. Please let me now specifically why you think it is misleading."

If anyone deels they would like to chip I'll be happy to include your thoughts or you could make your own complaint online at http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/

More discussion at http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3111&page=1#Item_7

 

[middi]

Well, I have heard of pine or oak windows and very familiar with the very popular PVC-u D/G unit, I must admit, though, I have never heard of regenerated PVC-u forests, ( unless mineral mining on a grand scale with all it's associated deterimental effect on the earth and the enviroment means the same thing)
Still, what do I know.

 

[Flyfisher]

I think the ASA reply was fair enough; they need some justification to work with.
What will be interesting is to learn is how the British Plastics Federation supports it's own claim, especially since it very specifically refers to the PVC-u material itself.

Perhaps they have pioneered the PVC-u forests that Middi has never seen :wink:

 

[biffvernon]

Oh I was just putting down a marker with the ASA - now I need to write a proper submission.
The British Plastics Federation supports it's own claim by quoting the A+ rating that the BRE have given in their Green Guide. It's the Green Guide that is such a deeply flawed document.

 

[Ian Bond]

If PVC-U windows last around 35 years

and if they are successfully recycled in a closed loop up to 10 times **

... they could last up to 350 years!

And PVC-U is mostly made of salt anyway, just like the sea.

And fishes swim in the sea.

Therefore PVC-U is 100% environmentally sound.

Good luck arguing with hard scientific facts like that!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

** It's going to be quite a challenge to make sure that every single pvc window and door is recylced as a door or window, and limit the amount of new material entering the system to an absolute minimum.

 

[middi]

I must try a piece of PVC-u on the end of my hook next time I go sea fishing.

 

[Ian Bond]

I like your thinking MIddi - another great use for PVC.

http://www.pvcaware.org/PVC_Facts.html

The picture of a leaf next to a PVC window is a nice touch, illustrating all of the trees that can be saved from destruction by the ruthless timber window industry.

 

[middi]

Plastics and silicon, totally necessary evils in contemporary way of living. This highlights the hypocrite in me.

I hate plastic windows and silicone t*ts. Not in harmony with nature. They should be dispensed with. ( especially the windows :wink: )

 

[biffvernon]

Hey, be serious folks. The plastics industry has been handed a gift in the BRE's so called 'Green Guide'. They have enormous resources and will spin it for all its worth. They are pretty desperate - my local plastic window factory has gone on a four day week and they are one of the more prosperous ones. The more people who go through the links on the top post of this spread and can help by forwarding me information and views or by making a complaint to the ASA directly the better. This could be an important test case.

 

[Flyfisher]

I suspect the Plastic windows factory has reduced its output because of the state of the housing market rather than people moving away from plastic windows. I agree the industry will spin any postive PR about their products - name an industry that doesn't - but I suspect their basic message of low maintenance windows is too powerful an incentive to the vast majority of homeowners in this country. Couple this with DG that will save loads of money on ever-increasing heating bills and the package is simply too tempting for many households. So what if they actually only last 25 years or so, that's way beyond the planning horizon for most people.

 

[Ian Bond]

Where's that data to support the claims that uPVC is the most environmentally friendly window frame material?

All we've got is a claim, and a meaningless A+ rating. A+ compared with what? It seems to me that almost everything is A+!

And as you'd expect, the facts are presented selectively, and phrased in a way to make legal challenge of them difficult.

PVC is 100% recyclable

I'm prepared to accept that perhaps most of what can be economically recovered from the waste stream can be recycled. How much of it is down-cycled into lower grade products though?

I'd expect that the 1st generation of plastic windows and doors are reaching the end of there service lives now, and either being buried (most likely) or recycled.

Are there verifiable numbers available to support the assertions that PVC windows and doors are being recycled in a closed-loop? I doubt it.

There can't possibly be enough recyclable waste entering the system to support 100% of the material requirements for new and replacement windows can there? Surely there must be a quantity of new PVC material being fed into this system dependant on demand?

This goes way beyond the scope of challenging that advert though - it's going to be rather an unequal battle trying to take on the whole plastic windows / petrochemical industry. The Good Homes Alliance seem to have the right idea. Perhaps the British Woodworking Federation and other interested parties could join forces. Not that it would even up the odds much, but it's a start.

Back to Biff's question, and the offending advert:

It's a fact that when it comes to window frames there is no more environmentally
friendly material available than PVC-U.

I'd tackle that outlandish claim by asking for hard data to back it up, or a withdrawal of the claim from the advert.

And counter with what we know about the benefits of responsibly sourced timber.

I can't add anything that you don't already know, but I will have a look at complaining to the ASA. I'll do it now.

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/reports/pvc-u-or-timber-windows-which-is-best

 

[Ian Bond]

I've made a complaint to the ASA, and should get a email confirmation in a day or two.

The British Plastics Federation will no doubt be deeply relieved to hear that although I have made and repaired a window or three, I am not a competitor and will not be taking legal action against them. (See Biff's post in "the other place").


http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3111&page=1#Item_7

The only reason that I could think of to back up my claim that the advert is misleading, is that it states as fact that PVC-U is the most environmentally friendly material available without reference to any evidence to back this up.

Perhaps it should have been along the lines of
"PVC-U, probably the most environmentally friendly window frame material in the world."

(no, and the lager's not up to much either - in my opinion of course. Probably).

 

[middi]

You are "probably" right Ian, I do agree ,though, that the stuff is ( probably ?) 100% recyclable but ,as you pointed out, what percentage of the used stuff reaches the polluting furnaces for the second or tenth time around.

 

[Ian Bond]

:lol: well put Middi

I suppose they've not had a chance to test the recycling theory yet.

We'll have to get our great, great, great ...... etc ... grandchildren to check up on this in 300 years time, perhaps compare some of Biff's oak windows with their more eco-friendly plastic competitors.

 

[plumbers mate]

Even some tv house programme presenters advocate wood, disapprove of plastic and warn people that replacing original wooden sashes with plastic are reducing saleability and any profit that may be made (obviously programmes made last year!)
I was surprised.

 

[biffvernon]

Fot what good it may do, here's what I sent to the ASA:

When the British Plastics Federation says "It's a fact that when it comes to window frames there is no more environmentally friendly material available than PVC-U. The BRE Green Guide rated PVC-U windows as A+ for commercial projects -that's as good as it gets!" it is wrong because my windows are more environmentally friendly. Their reference to the BRE Green Guide is discredited by the Good Homes Alliance in Critique Of The Green Guide To Specification, Neil May (NBT, NBT Consult) and Gary Newman (Plant Fibre Technology).
http://www.goodhomes.org.uk/downloads/news/160.pdf


My window frames are made from English oak. During growth the timber makes a positive contribution to biodiversity and landscape value whilst sequestering carbon.
Two journeys by lorry, from forest to sawmill and from sawmill to my workshop transport almost all the raw materials.
All waste wood is used for heating, displacing fossil fuels.
Some electricity is used for conversion of the felled timber to boards by the sawmill. A little more electricity is used in cutting operations during window construction though this work is labour intensive.
My windows are expected to have a lifetime of a couple of centuries, and with suitable maintenance and repairs could last indefinitely.
Being made of a durable timber, treatment with biocidal chemicals is not used.
If, eventually, the frames are no longer wanted, they can be burnt for heating or composted as a soil improver.

PVC window frames involve the extraction of salt and fossil hydrocarbons, either natural gas or oil and titanium dioxide as a filler and whitener.
The hydrocarbons are mostly imported. TiO2 is produced from illmenite mining with associated environmental destruction in places such as Madagascar.
Waste products throughout the production process cause hazardous waste disposal issues.
The energy involved in manufacturing is several times greater than my windows.
PVC windows have a lifetime of a small number of decades. They are generally un- repairable when damaged.
When discarded the PVC could potentially be recycled for lower value plastics or chemical feedstock but in practice much ends as landfill.
If burnt, accidentally or deliberately, the risk of production of toxins such as dioxin is high.

Consideration of whether a material is ‘environmentally friendly’ must include its visual impact on the built environment. That PVC windows are usually not allowed in Conservation Areas or on Listed Buildings indicates that they are not environmentally friendly in this context.

Several reports, listed below, have been published comparing the use of PVC and timber in windows. Note that the timber windows studied in such reports tend to be mass-produced, often softwood, chemically treated and painted windows, with an expected lifetime much less than my oak windows. They generally represent a worse case than my windows.

PVC-u or Timber. Which is best? Greenpeace
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/files/pdfs/migrated/MultimediaFiles/Live/FullReport/5588.pdf

What’s wrong with PVC? Greenpeace
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/files/pdfs/migrated/MultimediaFiles/Live/FullReport/5575.pdf

Window and Door Materials Assessment: Environmental and Financial Life Cycle Costs of Unplasticised Polyvinyl Chloride and Wood Windows. Manchester City Council, Entec UK Limited
http://www.theprimeconnection.co.uk/pdfs/Entec%20report%20on%20lifecycle%20costings.pdf

Life Cycle Assessment of PVC and of principal competing materials
Final Report Commissioned by European Union.
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/chemicals/sustdev/pvc-final_report_lca.pdf

Life Cycle Of Window Materials - A Comparative Assessment
M. Asif BSc MSc, A. Davidson BSc and T.Muneer PhD DSc CEng MlmechE
FICBSE Millennium Fellow School of Engineering , Napier University, 10 Colinton Road, Edinburgh EH10 5DT,
http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/Masif.pdf

Environmental impacts and energy balances of wood products and major substitutes
Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations
http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/y3609E/y3609e08.htm#P1050_57238

Window of opportunity: The environmental and economic benefits of specifying timber window frames. WWF-UK
http://assets.wwf.org.uk/downloads/windows_0305.pdf

 

[Ian Bond]

Comprehensive and well presented, makes my complaint look rather weedy:

Thank you for submitting your complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority.
We have passed your complaint to our Complaints team.
A Complaints Executive will assess your complaint and will reply in full as soon as possible.
Please quote this reference number in any correspondence: A08-78104

The advert claims

"It's a fact that when it comes to window frames there is no more environmentally
friendly material available than PVC-U."

This is not a fact, it is an unsubstantiated claim.

Responsibly sourced timber is a sustainable, environmentally friendly material.

To infer that it is a fact that PVC-U outperforms timber in this respect is misleading.

There is no reference to any research papers or other evidence to back-up the statement in question.

I don't have the in-depth knowledge of the industry or the scientific knowledge to make a challenge as detailed as Biff's, so my complaint is more the reaction of a bewildered consumer.

Anyway, I think that Biff's references should at least demonstrate that there is an established contrary view to the one expressed in the ad.

I've had dealings with ASA Complaints Executives in the past over a very different advert, and didn't get very far. It will be interesting to see what happens with this - I'd be interested to find out if any of the conservation organizations or representatives of the timber industry complain.

 

[Ian Bond]

The Greenpeace report on PVC is more than 10 years old - is there anything more recent.

I got the impression that the plastics industry had 'cleaned up' their product to some degree.

If lead is still in PVC-U windows then it is rather ironic that lead based paints were banned, making painted softwood somewhat less durable, only to be replaced with lead in the form of plastic windows.

Perhaps the new PVC-U products are lead-free?

 

[biffvernon]

Yes, the age of the documents is a problem. The lead and cadmium that used to go into PVC has been pretty much eliminated so direct toxicity is not the problem is used to be.

 

[Ian Bond]

I wonder if that means that the old, lead containing PVC-U cannot be recycled?

Dear Mr Bond

Thank you for your recent complaint about an ad by The British Plastics Federation. Please can you confirm if you have any connection with the window industry? If so, we would need your confirmation that you are happy for your company to be named in the event of an adjudication being published and that you are not pursuing legal action against the advertiser.


I would appreciate your response within five working days; if we do not receive a reply from you by then, we shall assume you no longer wish to pursue the matter and withdraw your complaint. If this deadline presents a problem at all then please do not hesitate to contact me and I can give you more time. I look forward to hearing from you by Thursday 18 December.

:roll: