A
Anonymous
Guest
"I come from Switzerland" is hardly proof that English is her second language.
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A
Anonymous
Guest
I can certainly relate to some of this, and its one reason I do the work myself. It would be quicker and easier to get a builder in, if they could do a decent job at a fair price. Some do, but in my experience so many dont know what theyre doing, or are unwilling to actually say what they plan to do (!!) Then there are those that want 5,000 for 2 weeks work. No, sorry.
However, I have no doubt they have plenty of problems with clients as well.
NT
However, I have no doubt they have plenty of problems with clients as well.
NT
A
Anonymous
Guest
Oh dear - you wouldn't care to tell us who the 'specialist' was would you? Then we can all avoid that person...
AAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
I agree with you. Rip it out, straighten it up, ruin it... all in the name of 'renovation'.
AAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
I agree with you. Rip it out, straighten it up, ruin it... all in the name of 'renovation'.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Lessons on dealing with builders.
You at the back there!
Yes You!
Spit that chewing gum OUT NOW!!
Lesson 1
Questions & Answers
BUILDERS QUOTES..........
1.What a builder quotes for, should be what you get for your money. YES or NO and why?
2.The time scale a builder agrees to start and complete on, will be kept to schedule.
True or False
and why?
You at the back there!
Yes You!
Spit that chewing gum OUT NOW!!
Lesson 1
Questions & Answers
BUILDERS QUOTES..........
1.What a builder quotes for, should be what you get for your money. YES or NO and why?
2.The time scale a builder agrees to start and complete on, will be kept to schedule.
True or False
and why?
A
Anonymous
Guest
Helena, I have been employed on several occasions to arbitrate between builder and householder over works that have gone wrong. One of the main causes of problems, I have found, is misunderstanding or discrepency between what was quoted for and what was carried out.
The fact is that on anything more than fairly simple works you should provide the builder with a clear specification and instructions as to what you want quoted for, what standard you want to achieve , what materials must be used and on what basis the works must be carried out - i.e. working hours, time, how payment will be made etc.
This rarely happens and so builders quote for what they think the client wants. This leads to three different quotes for three different jobs and inevitably leads to problems later. I can also tell you it is the reason why many builders turn up but do not quote. The moment they see that there is no organisation or professional input the better builders just do not want to know.
Unfortunately there is no regulation of builders in this Country and I'm afraid there will not be in the forseeable future. It's a nice idea but it won't happen. Therefore, also unfortunately, you cannot take a builder on face value. You must research and find out as much as possible about how they operate and also try to look at some previous work or talk to previous clients. If the builder is not happy with that then steer clear.
The fact is that on anything more than fairly simple works you should provide the builder with a clear specification and instructions as to what you want quoted for, what standard you want to achieve , what materials must be used and on what basis the works must be carried out - i.e. working hours, time, how payment will be made etc.
This rarely happens and so builders quote for what they think the client wants. This leads to three different quotes for three different jobs and inevitably leads to problems later. I can also tell you it is the reason why many builders turn up but do not quote. The moment they see that there is no organisation or professional input the better builders just do not want to know.
Unfortunately there is no regulation of builders in this Country and I'm afraid there will not be in the forseeable future. It's a nice idea but it won't happen. Therefore, also unfortunately, you cannot take a builder on face value. You must research and find out as much as possible about how they operate and also try to look at some previous work or talk to previous clients. If the builder is not happy with that then steer clear.
A
Anonymous
Guest
It's tempting to name the individual. However, he really was a nice guy and was sympathetic to the overall aims of the project.
He advertises that he specialises in lime plastering and, from the way he spoke, he clearly had had much experience working on older properties. But he gave me such contradicatory information.
May be all the previous jobs involved following detailed specifications under the direction of an architect or conservation expert. Working in that way he might do a very good job I suppose.
He advertises that he specialises in lime plastering and, from the way he spoke, he clearly had had much experience working on older properties. But he gave me such contradicatory information.
May be all the previous jobs involved following detailed specifications under the direction of an architect or conservation expert. Working in that way he might do a very good job I suppose.
A
Anonymous
Guest
This is an interesting thread yet it seeems to become more about misspellings, language and origins than about the topic. But vive le UK for its cultural diversity. And yes, if it matters, English is my 2nd language.
In recoginition to the builders and project managers in the thread, my father was once a contractor and I know how difficult and naive clients can be, especially when it comes to knowing what they want, itemising it properly and changing their minds. I have done the same on my own project, but it has been due to a good builder selected from three estiimates who I have gone through the project with in great detail. I have learned much from him as to what is possible, necessary and affordable in terms of what my champagne taste on ale budget allows. It is a process, and good builders are aware of this.Trust is as important as knowledge about the works.
So it seems in spite of no UK regulations, a good sign for a good builder is their willingness to talk you through a project on more than one visit, proportional to the spend and works. Also, it is truly a work in progress, and implies teamwork. The consulting time no doubt is added to the bill, but it is money well spent.
Especially for more complex building works, its is also the client's responsibility to do their homework and understand that, for instance, if they want a new bathroom that they understand the relationships between building walls, electrics, drains, water feeds and dimensions and that all of these will be necessary and this all pushes up costs and complex coordination on the part of the builder and his staff.
After all, clients have to live with the completed works, and preparing well means that they will enjoy the changes to their homes.
Helena
In recoginition to the builders and project managers in the thread, my father was once a contractor and I know how difficult and naive clients can be, especially when it comes to knowing what they want, itemising it properly and changing their minds. I have done the same on my own project, but it has been due to a good builder selected from three estiimates who I have gone through the project with in great detail. I have learned much from him as to what is possible, necessary and affordable in terms of what my champagne taste on ale budget allows. It is a process, and good builders are aware of this.Trust is as important as knowledge about the works.
So it seems in spite of no UK regulations, a good sign for a good builder is their willingness to talk you through a project on more than one visit, proportional to the spend and works. Also, it is truly a work in progress, and implies teamwork. The consulting time no doubt is added to the bill, but it is money well spent.
Especially for more complex building works, its is also the client's responsibility to do their homework and understand that, for instance, if they want a new bathroom that they understand the relationships between building walls, electrics, drains, water feeds and dimensions and that all of these will be necessary and this all pushes up costs and complex coordination on the part of the builder and his staff.
After all, clients have to live with the completed works, and preparing well means that they will enjoy the changes to their homes.
Helena
A
Anonymous
Guest
I would urge anyone who wanted anything beyond the most basic building work to have plans and specifications drawn up by a professional, not left up to the builder. Such a professional will have a list of contractors he or she is happy to work with, and vice versa.
It takes as long to become an architect as it does to become a doctor. Similarly, Chartered Surveyors have to pass very rigourous standards to qualify. You can either employ just for the initial stage or for the supervision of the whole work. Obviously, which you employ would depend on the work you require. All the discussions and decisions are then made with that person, who will have many ideas which you may not have thought through, and the builder then has detailed drawings and specifications from which to work. Sure, there may be changes you wish for once work starts, but it is certainly the best method of ensuring you get what you want, at an agreed and sensible price.
It's unfair to expect a building contractor to also be an architect.
I have employed an architect in the past, and found him invaluable, for everything from drawing up plans with sensitivity to a period house, and a knowledge of detail, to getting plans through the local authority to ensuring that the quality of work carried out met the standards required.
Both surveyors and architects have professionsla bodies which can be complained to if things do go very wrong - with builders, there is little except recourse to the law.
With a period home, then those with additional conservation qualifications should be employed.
It takes as long to become an architect as it does to become a doctor. Similarly, Chartered Surveyors have to pass very rigourous standards to qualify. You can either employ just for the initial stage or for the supervision of the whole work. Obviously, which you employ would depend on the work you require. All the discussions and decisions are then made with that person, who will have many ideas which you may not have thought through, and the builder then has detailed drawings and specifications from which to work. Sure, there may be changes you wish for once work starts, but it is certainly the best method of ensuring you get what you want, at an agreed and sensible price.
It's unfair to expect a building contractor to also be an architect.
I have employed an architect in the past, and found him invaluable, for everything from drawing up plans with sensitivity to a period house, and a knowledge of detail, to getting plans through the local authority to ensuring that the quality of work carried out met the standards required.
Both surveyors and architects have professionsla bodies which can be complained to if things do go very wrong - with builders, there is little except recourse to the law.
With a period home, then those with additional conservation qualifications should be employed.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Possibly he had worked on many period properties - it doesn't mean he has much idea about them, though! The ability to plaster in lime I would have hoped may have been allied to a knowledge of why he was using it...
A
Anonymous
Guest
***its is also the client's responsibility to do their homework and understand***
The worst part about building, is not the work.
Even when we hit problems theres alway away around it
And what a (good) builder (believe it or not) does not like doing is facing a client and telling them that because of the problem It is going to cost more or we have been delayed or one of the trades has not turned up.
The building works are a piece of cake.
But dealing with clients, BCO's(and other trades sometimes)who are not clued in, well that's a pain in the A*se.
Getting the wrong supplier as well
e.g A couple who I priced an Extension for
had some rubbish plans made for them at a cost (as they said) of £2000 they had no building specifcations
no Building Reg's (which is no big deal, it could be soughted out). I explained what they had to do in order for the works to proceed smoothly
Three week later they called me, we had a site meet
They wanted some extra's. We discussed this and that and so on.
When I asked what have they done i.e specs BC and a few other things.
NOTHING??? they had done absolutly nothing and I'm not talking about a semi in some town here thes people are professionals. Country cottage etc. And So to me that's when the Alarm bells start ringing
Clients must take control they must
'lead'
'Communication', and 'Understanding' of whats going on is very important.
I did not get the job because i was to expensive and that is because I new and I pointed out to the client that they had ROCK and that it would take longer than Usual.
We kept in touch though
I went to see her 5 days ago.
They had hit rock and alot of it.
the builders had been there for 3 weeks this was the forth week and they were still clearing
They still had to dig out the foundations
That will be fun (not)
The worst part about building, is not the work.
Even when we hit problems theres alway away around it
And what a (good) builder (believe it or not) does not like doing is facing a client and telling them that because of the problem It is going to cost more or we have been delayed or one of the trades has not turned up.
The building works are a piece of cake.
But dealing with clients, BCO's(and other trades sometimes)who are not clued in, well that's a pain in the A*se.
Getting the wrong supplier as well
e.g A couple who I priced an Extension for
had some rubbish plans made for them at a cost (as they said) of £2000 they had no building specifcations
no Building Reg's (which is no big deal, it could be soughted out). I explained what they had to do in order for the works to proceed smoothly
Three week later they called me, we had a site meet
They wanted some extra's. We discussed this and that and so on.
When I asked what have they done i.e specs BC and a few other things.
NOTHING??? they had done absolutly nothing and I'm not talking about a semi in some town here thes people are professionals. Country cottage etc. And So to me that's when the Alarm bells start ringing
Clients must take control they must
'lead'
'Communication', and 'Understanding' of whats going on is very important.
I did not get the job because i was to expensive and that is because I new and I pointed out to the client that they had ROCK and that it would take longer than Usual.
We kept in touch though
I went to see her 5 days ago.
They had hit rock and alot of it.
the builders had been there for 3 weeks this was the forth week and they were still clearing
They still had to dig out the foundations
That will be fun (not)
A
Anonymous
Guest
You have to watch out for them too
A builder has enough on his plate all he wants to do is build.
Design or spec's thats what the Archi and the SE are there for( well their supposed to be)
However all the time I am asked to design or suggest
or sought a problem out and I do enjoy getting stuck in to a challenge.
(and finding the solution is the reward, 'Eureka!!')
A builder has enough on his plate all he wants to do is build.
Design or spec's thats what the Archi and the SE are there for( well their supposed to be)
However all the time I am asked to design or suggest
or sought a problem out and I do enjoy getting stuck in to a challenge.
(and finding the solution is the reward, 'Eureka!!')
A
Anonymous
Guest
A post from builders Talk.
A reply to a post, about works not done to standard
Re: builder dispute
Posted: Oct 11, 2005 5:40 PM
Reply
Before storming off to Trading Standard, do bear in mind they will ask for invoices etc...
As you have paid cash in what I assume was an arrangement to avoid paying VAT.
This is tax fraud, just bear in mind that you are equally responsible for this in the eyes of the law, not just the builder. Trading standards will and do inform Customs and Excise.
I'm not a crusader, just informing you how things have tightened up recently. END
Is This true?
Any comment's?
A reply to a post, about works not done to standard
Re: builder dispute
Posted: Oct 11, 2005 5:40 PM
Reply
Before storming off to Trading Standard, do bear in mind they will ask for invoices etc...
As you have paid cash in what I assume was an arrangement to avoid paying VAT.
This is tax fraud, just bear in mind that you are equally responsible for this in the eyes of the law, not just the builder. Trading standards will and do inform Customs and Excise.
I'm not a crusader, just informing you how things have tightened up recently. END
Is This true?
Any comment's?
A
Anonymous
Guest
I supect it is true. Also, if you have paid cash in hand, then there is little come back in law regarding things going wrong!
Best to always play it by the rules...
Best to always play it by the rules...
A
Anonymous
Guest
>Lesson 1
>Questions & Answers
>BUILDERS QUOTES..........
>1.What a builder quotes for, should be what you
>get for your money. YES or NO and why?
IIRC no, as some items listed will be not included in the cost. But I dont remember the details...
>2.The time scale a builder agrees to start and
>complete on, will be kept to schedule.
>True or False
>and why?
not at all. Why? No legal requirement to. Penalty clause is the only way to get that one running IIUC, and those are rarely included. And will cost if they are.
That half right?
NT
>Questions & Answers
>BUILDERS QUOTES..........
>1.What a builder quotes for, should be what you
>get for your money. YES or NO and why?
IIRC no, as some items listed will be not included in the cost. But I dont remember the details...
>2.The time scale a builder agrees to start and
>complete on, will be kept to schedule.
>True or False
>and why?
not at all. Why? No legal requirement to. Penalty clause is the only way to get that one running IIUC, and those are rarely included. And will cost if they are.
That half right?
NT