Pointing removal tool recommendations

[xanthe]

Due to husband's request for list of possible xmas gifts, I'm looking for ideas for a suitable tool to remove cement pointing.

Pointing is between large to medium size blocks of dressed Wealden Sandstone, so reasonably easy to damage with anything unwieldy. It's likely that the mortar is lime underneath the pointing. Unlike the outside of the house, it's not falling off to the point you just need a brush, it's fairly firmly fixed.

Needs to be something reasonably small and lightweight. I'm having my spine fused in the NY and orders are nothing heavier than a full kettle for the first 8 weeks.

 

[plasticpigeon]

The only way I have found that causes little damage is to use a grinder with a cutting disk to cut a groove down the centre of the cement pointing. Then the cement either side can be chipped away with a hammer and chisel away from the stone, into the groove hopefully not taking the stone with it. I used this method on soft brick with pretty good success.

 

[jackpoint]

This worked well for me...
Irwin Mortar rake kit
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Irwin-10507267-Mortar-Rake-Starter/dp/B002ED6BIQ

Done best part of the front of the house with one.
Best paired with a very sucky vacuum

 

[kreyszig]

I haven't tried one myself but I thought this looked like a good solution.
edit: not too dissimilar to above - believe it or not I did start replying before that was posted

 

[Zebra]

It wouldn't be much of a Christmas present, but I'm afraid I found the absolute best tool was an old flat screwdriver used with a hammer. I tried a mortar rake*. I used it for about 5 minutes, before going back to the old driver.
I wish you the very best with the spine op. It sounds pretty drastic, having it fused, but I'm guessing the reason you're having it done is that you're in a lot of pain as it is, so I hope it goes well and you manage better afterwards.

*edit: Not one that goes in an angle grinder, but this type: http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/36375-mortar-rake-52140-rolson-tools.html

 

[Flyfisher]

I've got one of those 'mortar rakes'. They are ok for loose and crumbly lime mortar but I would expect them to be just about useless for hard cement mortar.

 

[bennoa1]

I've got a selection of these:
http://www.harbrosupplies.com/chisels-tungsten.html
Not the cheapest but fantastic. Just tap the cement gently using a low weight hammer. Tiring but works.
bennoa1

 

[kreyszig]

Yep Zebra's one is for use in wet mortar, to give a recessed finish.
I have done a small wall using a lump hammer and plugging chisel - effective but very time consuming, not to mention tiring!

Another option considering your requirements would be an oscillating multi-tool with a diamond abrasive bit. A good quality one (like a Fein) does a great job of isolating the oscillations from you, and there's no risk of it catching and taking you by surprise. I haven't used a diamond bit on cement mortar but have used a normal carbide one. It wore out pretty quickly but was effective. It will only cut a thin channel though which could be handy if using plasticpigeons method.

 

[Feltwell]

Yep Zebra's one is for use in wet mortar, to give a recessed finish.

Umm, sorry, but I disagree - it's for raking out loose mortar. They can be extremely effective, but only if the old mortar is either already very loose or it's the thinnest of thin skims of cement pointing over lime. For deep, well stuck cement mortar it will be useless.

I'm a huge fan of oscillating multi-tools but I think they'd be far too slow for a job like removing pointing. Might be an option if you've got very tight gaps to get into but progress would be slow in the extreme.

A small 4 1/2" grinder with a diamond disc will do a great job of cutting a slot in deep cement pointing and the disc will last for ages, but it needs using with extreme care - it will go through brick just as easily as it goes through pointing, and will go through flesh even easier! It would be my preferred method though for any large scale pointing removal, followed by finishing the job off with a plugging chisel. If you're feeling brave and have a very steady hand then you can get diamond discs for mortar removal that are thicker than a normal disc.

http://www.orbitalfasteners.co.uk/en/products/addax-115mm-mortar-raking-blade-sintered

Another option is a rotary mortar rake, slower than a diamond disc but more controllable and less likely to much instant damage if you get it wrong. Not very long lasting though.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/mortar-rake-8-x-75mm/31307

A small grinder is quite light but to be honest with any kind of back problem I wouldn't fancy raking mortar out by any means!

 

[skier-hughes]

This would make a nice Christmas present, and is the one used by our pointing team
http://www.sitebox.ltd.uk/arbortech-as170-1450-watt-industrial-oscillating-cutting-saw-110v240v-oARB_AS170

 

[kreyszig]

Yep Zebra's one is for use in wet mortar, to give a recessed finish.

Umm, sorry, but I disagree - it's for raking out loose mortar. They can be extremely effective, but only if the old mortar is either already very loose or it's the thinnest of thin skims of cement pointing over lime. For deep, well stuck cement mortar it will be useless.

I stand corrected! I could have sworn I saw an online description of one of those recently stating that it was not suitable for raking out old mortar, of course now all I can find are the exact opposite

 

[stuart45]

On new work on site the Marshalltown ones are used for recessed joints. The end is used to smooth out the joints.
Recessed joints are not commonly used on exterior work, as the bucket handle style is better suited and much quicker to do.

 

[88v8]

We seem to be getting muddled between tools for pointing, and tools for removing pointing which is what the OP needs.

Skier's Xmas present looks superb.

Me, I would use a selection of pointing chisels (aka plugging chisel). They come in different widths, and are designed for removing old pointing.
Quite narrow
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Plugging-Chisel-with-Guard-250mm-/301401535980?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item462cee75ec
and a bit wider
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Builders-Brand-Carbon-Steel-Plugging-Chisel-250-x-16mm-Brick-Metal-Concrete-/251716025062?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item3a9b71bae6

I would also look for an even narrower one.

Also, as hubby will inevitably hit his hand a few times with the lump hammer, I would buy him one of these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BUFFALO-RADAR-LEATHER-WATERPROOF-THICK-THERMAL-MOTORCYCLE-MOTORBIKE-GLOVES-/190851053814?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Gloves&var=&hash=item2c6f9bf8f6

Spine fused... you say that so casually :shock:

Ivor

 

[xanthe]

Wow, lots of food for thought! Thank you so much.

Time isn't a massive issue - it can be done over months rather than days/weeks - it's more a case of doing it without damaging the bricks or stone. We can't do much to the house till late Spring, and the back is going to wreck the ability to do anything big. I know I will be chomping at the bit to get started on things so having a decent size project will help with that.

I've got one of those bar-type stools that will allow me to sit and work at various heights without having to bend or anything. I think any of the big pieces of kit are going to be too heavy. A small hammer and good chisels (am looking at the links) is a good possibility, or- if it has a hope of doing anything - a more durable version of a dental drill would be ideal (but no idea if it will take a whole drill bit for every 5mm of pointing!)

The inglenook fireplace has also been repointed in cement so I can do that as well if it gets too cold in the cellar.

Thanks zebra, back is in dire state, but GP is v v generous with the morphine . Neuro seems confident of a great result so fingers crossed. 88v8 - has got to the point where it's a no brainer - probably shouldn't have watched the You-tube video though :shock: .

Just have to survive the delights of Stanmore - am starting to think that the pre-WWII huts must be Grade I Listed! The corridor to the operating theatres is open air and they need a mini-tractor to take you back to the wards as the slope is so steep! Hilarious for a world-class hospital really.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I would like to add that rotary tools (like dentists drills, or anything drill based) are in my experience awkward for removing pointing, as the bit can slip about on the surface of the pointing and spoil the edges or surface of the masonry. A thin disk is less likely to do this as once it has made its initial cut it is stopped from running out of its groove. Sometimes the cement is not very well stuck to the masonry, but it is hard and is held in securely with a mechanical fit. Once there is space for the pointing to move it often just falls out.

 

[a twig]

Fluted plugging chisels all the way, especially if you are dealing with softer stone, where a slip from a grinder could cause a lot of damage.

A chisel with a decent mason's punch hammer won't be too tiring either, as you just let the weight of the hammer do the work. Yes it's probably slower but you're less likely to damage the stone.

When it comes to clearing out the debris post chiselling, a cheapo flathead screwdriver from poundland bent at 90 degrees does a great job.

If you must use a grinder, please use a proper raking disc, and not just a normal cutting disc.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I have found a cutting disk better as it just cuts a thin groove, and it doesn't pull the pointing out which can cause damage. It is also much thinner so there is less likelyhood of grinding the masonry.

 

[a twig]

Fair enough if that works best for you - there's always an exception!

I'll just leave this quote here from the NPS:

The most common method of removing mortar, however, is through the use of power saws or grinders. The use of power tools by unskilled masons can be disastrous for historic masonry, particularly soft brick. Using power saws on walls with thin joints, such as most brick walls, almost always will result in damage to the masonry units by breaking the edges and by overcutting on the head, or vertical joints.

If you do want to use power tools, maybe find a bit of hidden wall first to practice on

One last tip that helped me - only using cutting/raking discs on horizontals greatly reduces your chances of cocking things up

 

[plasticpigeon]

One last tip that helped me - only using cutting/raking discs on horizontals greatly reduces your chances of cocking things up

I absolutely agree with you on this point!

 

[bennoa1]

In my experience the pointed chisels concentrate too much of the "hit" on one small spot and bounce off, where the flat ended chisels spread the load and are more accurate to cause enough damage to weaken the cement. The Harbro chisels are fantastic - I know they are expensive but I've used them so much in removing cement mortar, both internally and externally.
Power tools isn't a great idea - will damage the bricks and significantly more dangerous than manual.
bennoa1