picture rail advice

[JBean]

Let me begin by apologising for the ridiculous ignorance revealed by this post.

We have an Edwardian house, with picture rails galore. Previous owner put hooks in the walls for what seems like thousands of pictures and we have so far simply been hanging things on the same hooks. Then we went to put up two very heavy pictures and suddenly thought :roll: we should use the picture rails.

I have looked online and and see you can buy all sorts of hooks and wires but really need some basic advice. Are there different sorts of hooks for different rails? Do you really not attach them to the rail, but just hook them over? What sort of wire and how do you get it to the right length, especially for a heavy picture that we want to hang off two separate wires? How do you attach it so it stays secure? What sort of fixing do we need on the back of the pictures? Are there good online sites where we can get supplies? Is there any disadvantage to using the rails?

Apologies again for the very basic query, but any and all help would be appreciated!

 

[Alex O]

I think it's a lovely look in a house with rails, and we intend to hang a lot of pictures from them when we get to that magical point!

As far as I'm aware there aren't different hooks for different rails. In the flat we rented before moving to Manchester we hung a very heavy mirror from the picture rail - just hooked it over using picture rail hooks and picture wire (took forever to get the wires to the same level on both sides though). It was very secure:



The hooks had two points on them that sort of tucked into the back of the rail and with the downward pressure from the mirror there was no way it could fall off. Maybe you could buy some hooks and test it out on your rail with something non-precious?

We used the fixings that were already on the mirror - normal picture fixings appropriate to the weight of the picture should be fine for attaching the wires to.

I like the look of the thin, gold wire as it's unobtrusive. I cut a longer length than I needed and doubled it over, then twisted it back on itself to adjust the length. I don't know if the doubling was necessary, but with the mirror being heavy I didn't want to take chances. Getting both sides to the same length was an infuriating process of trial and error - hanging the picture and taking it down again, adjusting the length, hanging it again, adjusting the other side.... if there's an easier way that someone knows about I'd love to hear it.

 

[Penners]

I've only ever seen one kind of picture rail hook:



As for the 'string', for heavy pictures I don't really trust the twisted wire that you can buy - I've seen it fail too often. For this reason, and for its aesthetic benefits, I would use brass chain.

 

[Feltwell]

Getting both sides to the same length was an infuriating process of trial and error - hanging the picture and taking it down again, adjusting the length, hanging it again, adjusting the other side.... if there's an easier way that someone knows about I'd love to hear it.

One hook only fitted centrally and passing one wire/chain over it that is linked to both sides of the picture? I thought that was how they were usually done. Yours allows for a fixing failure though I suppose, unless the whole rail came down!

 

[Feltwell]

Let me begin by apologising for the ridiculous ignorance revealed by this post.

JBean, no apology required, to reveal ridiculous ignorance you'd have to try much, much harder than that :wink:

I reckon I could manage it on anything to do with soft furnishings or decorative schemes! :lol:

 

[Alex O]

Getting both sides to the same length was an infuriating process of trial and error - hanging the picture and taking it down again, adjusting the length, hanging it again, adjusting the other side.... if there's an easier way that someone knows about I'd love to hear it.

One hook only fitted centrally and passing one wire/chain over it that is linked to both sides of the picture? I thought that was how they were usually done. Yours allows for a fixing failure though I suppose, unless the whole rail came down!

Aha, now that is good thinking! I like the look of two hooks with a big picture, but actually you could use that method anyway by passing the wire through both fixings at the back of the picture, then up on each side.

JBean, no apology required, to reveal ridiculous ignorance you'd have to try much, much harder than that :wink:

I reckon I could manage it on anything to do with soft furnishings or decorative schemes! :lol:

You're pretty good on damp on an Edwardian gable end! Now furnishings and decorating is more my metier, but I'm learning about the building stuff.

 

[Penners]

One hook only fitted centrally and passing one wire/chain over it that is linked to both sides of the picture? I thought that was how they were usually done.

Big, heavy pictures are often hung on two hooks, with the chain bridging across the two. This works best if the hole in one link of the chain is hung over each hook. You can of course achieve the same end by having two individual chains, one on each side.

 

[Flyfisher]

As for the 'string', for heavy pictures I don't really trust the twisted wire that you can buy - I've seen it fail too often. For this reason, and for its aesthetic benefits, I would use brass chain.

Unfortunately, I can echo that. We have an oil painting of Mrs FF's Great Great Grandfather, not a particularly good or valuable painting but understandably of great sentimental value to us. Some years ago it fell from the wall when the hanging wire broke and suffered a tear across the middle. The restorer (who did a very good job indeed) told us that broken wires are a very common cause of picture damage.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

I have lived with some enormous oil paintings in gilt frames, hung in some pretty precarious places. Always a chain, 2 12 inch screws rawled into the wall with a keep on each screw for the chain to go behind. No accidents yet. For lighter pictures on a picture rail Penners has given you a picture of the most commonly used ones, again I think two is quite a good idea--saves the pictures being knocked skew whiff by Mrs Shagpile when she is wafting around with the feather duster--nothing worse than crooked pictures!!!!

 

[plasticpigeon]

I've done much the same as suggested above. I didn't want to drill holes so everything is hung off the picture rail. Smaller pictures are hung from brass wire looped through two hooks on the back of the picture. I have even hung pictures from pictures using this method hanging the lower picturer from the wire stretched between the hooks on the upper picture. I used chain on a mirror and a big picture. I just went to the hardware shop and found some stuff. I used 2 pieces of brass chain for each picture, hung them from the picture rail via picture rail hooks, and copper rings on the chain. The chain is attached to the picture frame using hooks attached to a copper ring on the other end of the chain, and a loop on each side of the frame. Pictures show it better.

 

[plasticpigeon]

another picture

 

[Alex O]

Very nice plasticpigeon! I think that's the sort of thing we'll do when we get to that point.

Out of interest, are your walls skimmed or is that lining paper?

 

[plasticpigeon]

Thanks, the walls have been skimmed I'm afraid. In fact in that room, totally replastered, (wet plaster but not lime). The plaster in my house is pretty much sand with no lime in at all. Strangely the plaster on the lath covered stud walls is pretty good!

 

[Penners]

Just the job, PP - excellent picture hanging!

 

[88v8]

Those hooks are called moulding hooks.
Old ones come up on eBay.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PICTURE-RAIL-HOOK-ORNATE-MOULDING-HOOK-VICTORIAN-BRASS-/122312496484?hash=item1c7a649564:g:qHQAAOSwt5hYe8nh

And they are available new but usually without the patina.
However, not always without
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Victorian-Old-Style-Picture-Rail-Brass-Hooks-painting-photo-hanging-star-USA-/132063380791?hash=item1ebf974537:g:vTIAAOSw9GhYeLvC

The brass picture wire
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/111295737136?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33676502101&rlsatarget=aud-168805812306%3Apla-271883395635&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=1006873&device=c&campaignid=707291931&crdt=0
comes in varying strengths from flimsy to massive.
The reason it eventually - many years - fails is that it has a steel core which rusts or fails from reuse and bending, or too small a gauge is chosen. Large glazed pictures can be heavy.

In our previous house we had picture rails, wouldn't have dreamed of putting nails in the wall.
In terms of layout, picture wires can be long or short, and one picture can be hung off another.

For mirrors we used chandelier chain.
http://www.bitofbrass.co.uk/14mm-link-solid-brass-decorative-chandelier-jack-chain--per-10-metre-hank-644-p.asp

Ivor

 

[Alex O]

Thanks, the walls have been skimmed I'm afraid. In fact in that room, totally replastered, (wet plaster but not lime). The plaster in my house is pretty much sand with no lime in at all. Strangely the plaster on the lath covered stud walls is pretty good!

How old is the house? I don't really see what's so dreadfully wrong with skimming in the type of house that would have had a smooth plaster finish, like Edwardian.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Thanks, the walls have been skimmed I'm afraid. In fact in that room, totally replastered, (wet plaster but not lime). The plaster in my house is pretty much sand with no lime in at all. Strangely the plaster on the lath covered stud walls is pretty good!

How old is the house? I don't really see what's so dreadfully wrong with skimming in the type of house that would have had a smooth plaster finish, like Edwardian.

Yes, early Edwardian, brick house with a slate dpc. I also see no problems with gypsum in such a house, but hard core conservationists wouldn't approve. Don't tell anyone, but those picture rails are not original to the house either!

 

[Flyfisher]

Thanks, the walls have been skimmed I'm afraid. In fact in that room, totally replastered, (wet plaster but not lime). The plaster in my house is pretty much sand with no lime in at all. Strangely the plaster on the lath covered stud walls is pretty good!

How old is the house? I don't really see what's so dreadfully wrong with skimming in the type of house that would have had a smooth plaster finish, like Edwardian.

I'm no history expert but I find the idea that old plaster was anything less than smooth rather unconvincing. We have plenty of old haired lime plaster that is perfectly flat and smooth and as good as any modern 'pink' skim. And why wouldn't it be? Are the advocates of 'wobbly' plaster suggesting that the plasterers of old were less skilled than their modern counterparts and incapable of achieving a smooth finish? I find that hard to believe.

Having said that, we also have plenty of old lime plaster that is wobbly, mostly lath and plaster ceilings where the lath fixings are beginning to fail. Indeed, in places where water ingress through the roof has soaked the ceiling over many years, the lath fixings have rusted through and failed completely, leading to partial collapse of the ceiling.

So my inexpert view is that pretty much all plaster would have originally been flat and smooth and that it is the effect of time and gradual decay that leads to the 'wobbly' plaster we commonly see in period properties. It is the characteristics of hair and lime that enables the plaster to accommodate this underlying movement without cracking and falling off the wall as modern plasters might.

All of which presents something of a dilemma during restoration works, in that anything other than flat and smooth plaster is probably not an honest repair but is also somewhat disrespectful of the skills of the original period plasterers.

 

[Penners]

So my inexpert view is that pretty much all plaster would have originally been flat and smooth and that it is the effect of time and gradual decay that leads to the 'wobbly' plaster we commonly see in period properties. It is the characteristics of hair and lime that enables the plaster to accommodate this underlying movement without cracking and falling off the wall as modern plasters might.

I absolutely agree, FF. Plasterers in days of yore were undoubtedly every bit as skilled as today's artisans, and we do them an injustice to suggest otherwise.

However, I have a sneaking feeling that the deterioration of long-lasting lime plaster finishes has been seized upon by some people who want to (a) have a bash at DIY, or (b) want a cheap plastering job done, to justify the less-than-smooth finish that they accomplish.

Whisper it: I fall into category (a)!

 

[plasticpigeon]

In my house the plaster is a dark red colour, and although the original setting coat is reasonably solid, the render underneath is pretty much just sand with a light seasoning of lime. Certainly if I pull wallpaper off the wall the paper is stuck to the plaster better than the plaster is stuck to the wall! I also have areas that have delaminated in a large sheet where some of the render has turned to dust and fallen behind the skirting