Period frustration

[wobs]

Mentioned our main fustration in the past:
http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10561&p=125967&hilit=swear+wobs#p125967

 

[Cocoa]

It turns out they were totally clueless when it came to having building work done and relied totally on a builder who was equally clueless.

There were 2 large "conservation" construction companies that were near me until recently when they both went bust. One was Linford Bridgeman, and the other William Sapcote. Although these companies had some high profile restorations in their portfolios, all the people I have met from these companies don't seem to be very good. The builders who worked on my house were fallout from William Sapcote, I got a quote from a plasterer who worked for Trumpers (part of Sapcote) who wanted to PVA my walls and then wouldn't give me a quote when I said i didn't want PVA, and a mason from Linfords who suggested filling my damaged stone with cement and painting. After I said I wanted it left bare stone, he suggested mixing stone dust and pva. This might be ok for a fireplace but for window sills?!?!?! He also thought my stone was grey and couldn't recognise it, and it took me a while to convince him that the grey colour was the remnants of some dirty paintwork and the stone is actually a pale cream colour like Bathstone. I think very few people know what they are doing, and this isn't limited to the building trade unfortunately.

How does everyone go about finding conservation-minded tradesmen? I need some annual maintenance on my slate-tiled roof, a bit of re-pointing on the chimneys (lime, obviously!), wooden gutters seen to... one roofer I spoke to actually said that if the roof was over 50 years it would need replacing. My neighbours seem less conservationally-minded than I am, so haven't been to helpful so far :|

 

[Penners]

How does everyone go about finding conservation-minded tradesmen?

Not being much of a user of tradesmen, I can't give you any definitive advice. However, were I to consider using one I would put him/her to a sneaky, covert test.

Me: "We need to have this wall re-plastered and the chimney stack repointed. What would you advise us to get done?"

Builder: "Well, I'd hack off the old mortar, nail up some expanded metal lath and render it in cement."

Me: "Thank you and goodbye."

That's a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I seriously believe that a bit of wide-eyed innocence can help you to find out a lot about a builder's techniques and credentials.

 

[DJH]

Hmm. Don't start me off on 'conservation' trades people... :twisted:

Doug

 

[88v8]

Most builders will do what the owner wants, as cheaply as possible. Few will argue for 'proper' methods and materials.
If you want the job done properly, you have to learn how to do it yourself, then you will know whether your prospective builders are suitable. This goes double for work on the roof, where they may feel that they can get away with whatever because you won't be checking.

Ivor

 

[plasticpigeon]

Most builders will do what the owner wants, as cheaply as possible. Few will argue for 'proper' methods and materials.

Many (or even most) don't know what proper methods or materials are. I have only ever had bad experiences, with the exception of one carpenter who is a personal friend of mine. If I ever find a builder I am happy with I will treat him/her like royalty. I wish some of the tradespeople who come on this forum lived near me.

 

[mivec]

I have two 'conservation' builders I have used and both have been excellent. Finding them has been more luck than judgement but from my experience their credentials have been blatantly obvious from first meeting them. I don't think there is any middle ground with builders, they either 'get 'period properties or they don't.

Both I have used live and breathe old buildings and can't hold back from sharing there knowledge and passion. They were full of stories of similar properties they have worked on, what they had discovered and some of the horrors they had found. Both were very good at reading the properties and from the initial meetings I found out things about the buildings histories I never knew about.

They were as, if not more, upset about the inappropriate work that had been done than I was and to them, getting the job was more than just the money, they saw it as a duty to correct the problems and preserve the building. When doing the work both have treated it more like a hobby than a job, one I regularly had to kick out when I got home a 6 or 7 o'clock, he didn't realise the time or he 'just wanted to finish….'.

If I met a builder now and was in any doubt about his period building experience and knowledge or he just saw it as just another job I would say he was definitely in the 'don't' camp and not the right man for the job.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I wouldn't use anyone who didn't have a glossy website with details of what they've done to a string of Grade 1 properties. Which means paying more, chasing them, and waiting until they're free from bigger projects, but the alternative just feels like stabbing in the dark. So much depends on area too, Grantham is a bit of a dump but Stamford is just 20 mins away, one of the nicest historic towns in England, and wealthy, so we have a good choice of conservation minded professionals. Having said that I had a roofer from Stamford tell me that the sensible thing to do was to sell our roof (with himself as the buyer) and start again, and that as Swithland slate was no longer available I'd better choose a different kind of grey slate. I don't doubt his competence as a roofer but he didn't care that we have the original slates to the cottage and wouldn't dream of parting with them. You have to be really careful with advice like that.

 

[Penners]

I wouldn't use anyone who didn't have a glossy website with details of what they've done to a string of Grade 1 properties.

I can see your pattern of thinking, Joce, but I'm not absolutely sure about its logic. Glossy websites are not that difficult to come by, and can give a very much over-inflated look to a mediocre organisation. By contrast, a little, traditional craftsman may not have a website at all, and may depend on word-of-mouth for his work. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's lacking in the knowledge and skills that you need.

It's a dilemma.

 

[mivec]

By contrast, a little, traditional craftsman may not have a website at all, and may depend on word-of-mouth for his work. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's lacking in the knowledge and skills that you need.

I would agree. The two builders I used are essentially sole tradesmen with connections. They have their own areas of expertise and then scale up when the job demands. One of the builders I used is a carpenter by trade but he also brought in a lime plasterer and bricklayer none of whom I would have known about or been able to find on their own. He also roped in his blacksmith friend who wasn't busy to help out as a labourer, he then went on to make some door hinges for me.

Most of their work is word of mouth and they hardly advertise, once one has a job they bring in each other, keeping it in the circle. They all seem to be really busy to the point where they can be quite selective about what jobs they take on. The non word of mouth work seems to be ongoing arrangements with large organisations, councils, heritage trusts etc, even the church. The lime plaster was delayed a week as he was finishing up some work at Winchester Cathedral.

 

[Penners]

he was finishing up some work at Winchester Cathedral.

I hope it wasn't bringing him down.*



* Extremely obscure musical reference.

 

[LadyArowana]

he was finishing up some work at Winchester Cathedral.

I hope it wasn't bringing him down.*



* Extremely obscure musical reference.

He probably had something nice by John Cage playing continuously on the iPod. :roll:

 

[Flyfisher]

* Extremely obscure musical reference.

Not so obscure if your sister was a fan of The New Vaudeville Band and constantly played "Peek A Boo" on the family Dansette. :wink:

 

[Penners]

I had a large bet with myself that you'd be quick off the mark, FF.

I've won!

 

[Flyfisher]

Only too happy to oblige. :wink:

 

[ladytmwright]

Oh dear! Reading your post brought back some awful memories of the times when our neighbour has mentioned some of the things that were once part of our lovely house, before we moved in, but were gotten rid of by the elderly ladies that lived here because they thought nobody buying the house would really want them! Not really talking big stuff here like furniture, features etc, but things like brass fenders, tea sets, and, most annoyingly, boxes and boxes of linen of all kinds!! Aaargh! How frustrating! I would have killed for that!!! Still, there were still some little gems that came with the house, like an old mangle, which now takes pride of place in the garden, having been transformed into a patio table; a HUGE rectangular piece of marble, which was in the cellar, and has been a reliable kitchen worktop for the last ten years; an edwardian roll-top bath (say no more); but we were pretty miffed when the builders decided to half-inch every single one of the old tools incl forks, spades etc from the cellar and manage to 'spirit away' my solid chunk of marble from the salvaged fireplace we instructed him to fit!!! Instead we got a bog standard bit of orange speckled plastic from the local DIY store! I remember my husband ringing me up with the "do you want the good news or the bad news?" scenario! Oh, but I do really feel for you re the front door. It's such a fundamental part of the house, but I am so glad you have forgiven them. I suppose if it wasn't for these ridiculous mistakes, we wouldn't be getting half as much satisfaction in caring, treasuring and appreciating our homes, and I suppose everything is a learning curve along the way! I can laugh about it now............

 

[LadyArowana]

Oh, but I do really feel for you re the front door. It's such a fundamental part of the house,

Usually the front door is like the face of the house. We had a beastly replacement one on the apartment, put in when there was a lot of remodelling done late '70's early 80's ( not by us ). It was a cheap faux Georgian thing and His Lordship always wished that we still had an original. I had it replaced with a copy of what should have been there. The builder told me that he wouldn't be able to match the letterplate as the original design was over 100 years old, so I said I would scour reclamation places for something sympathetic. I took a reference picture of our neighbours door and after a very long time with Mr Google found an exact match for the original door furniture, so we now have a door that matches what was there when the place was built.

The irony was that some months later another flat on our level was sold to some dreadful crass young developer and he replaced the lovely old original door with the trendy new flat thing with huge matt brushed steel fittings, hideous, absolutely hideous. The managing board have since decreed that changes to doors onto the communal space will no longer be allowed! I guess they never had that rule before as they thought nobody would be that stupid ( ours was done years ago because they were creating new doorways, so marginally more understandable ).

Putting ours back how it should have been was one of the best parts of the whole project for me!

What we used to have...


An original door at the flat opposite us.


What we have now.

 

[Penners]

Have the owners of the flat opposite spotted that there door has disappeared, yet?

 

[LadyArowana]

Have the owners of the flat opposite spotted that there door has disappeared, yet?

No they were too busy checking their spelling.

 

[Penners]