Paying up-front for materials? Thoughts please.

[Flyfisher]

:lol:
Perhaps we should all have hitching rails outside for their horses.

 

[steveb]

depending on his definition of "paying in advance" an alternative to you buying the materials yourself could be that you make payment to him for the materials immediately on delivery . His concern could be that you, as an unknown customer, may be a troublesome type - so he wants to reduce his risk of you not paying for the whole job down to a risk of you not paying for his labour.

So you effectively split the job into 2:

1) a materials order, paid COD
2) labour order paid as you then agree between you

-Steve

 

[robgil]

depending on his definition of "paying in advance" an alternative to you buying the materials yourself could be that you make payment to him for the materials immediately on delivery . His concern could be that you, as an unknown customer, may be a troublesome type - so he wants to reduce his risk of you not paying for the whole job down to a risk of you not paying for his labour.

So you effectively split the job into 2:

1) a materials order, paid COD
2) labour order paid as you then agree between you

-Steve

My thoughts exactly, many people who work in the building trades will have come across customers who think it is OK to pay 6 months after completion and only then after many many reminders to pay. Then there are the nit pickers who want a discount for whatever reason but a discount that only they see appropriate. Then there is the ''Ive lost my job and cannot pay'' people who still drive around in the M Series or new Merc but cannot find the money to pay you for the work you have done for them.
People are being more and more cautious these days, especially with the economic climate the way it is. It might be that in the near future paying up front will be the norm.

 

[Lindyboo]

:lol:
Perhaps we should all have hitching rails outside for their horses.

If only we could find someone reliable to construct them ...

 

[Flyfisher]

It might be that in the near future paying up front will be the norm.

I'd be very surprised. How many employees are paid in advance?

Thing is, if a one-man band builder disappears overnight then it's probably a big job to track him down, whereas the builder knows where the non-paying customer lives and, in extreme cases, can simply return and take back any work that hasn't been paid for:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/7361422.stm

 

[robgil]

I am sure that isnt entirely legal , is it? Also just because you know where a customer lives doesnt mean they have to pay you, if they dont have the money they dont have it and all the courts in the world cannot change that.

Edit - I had a few quotes for work on the cottage and to be honest the cheapest was from a large local'ish Suffolk based company called Lime and Mortar, definitaly not a one man band and their approach was very professional. We had a quote within a few weeks, broken down so we knew what was what. Some of the one man bands quotes were outrageous and there was a lot of teeth sucking and head shaking over relatively simple aspects of the job. Sometimes it is better to go with a large company rather than a small one or two manned team.

 

[Flyfisher]

You're right, of course, that it an be difficult to force a customer to pay, especially if they can't afford it, but why should an affected builder not recover his materials if he's not paid for them? Ownership of goods typically remain with the supplier until fully paid for. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[robgil]

You're right, of course, that it an be difficult to force a customer to pay, especially if they can't afford it, but why should an affected builder not recover his materials if he's not paid for them? Ownership of goods typically remain with the supplier until fully paid for. Seems reasonable to me.

I am not sure but I would have thought you cannot simply demolish the work that has been done, although people seem to do it.

 

[Flyfisher]

. . . and, apparently, with the full knowledge of the council, which took no action, so it must presumably be quite legal. As I think it should be.

 

[Keithj]

Good trades are usually busy and have a waiting list of people they've worked for before who want them again. It can be the case that you need to be referred to a trade by someone they've worked for before to get them to take you seriously.

That resonates. The people who have been good (nay, supremely excellent) have been those recommended to us by locals whose names we have quoted.
Several of them are now in the habit of popping in for a cuppa while passing - no work to be done, just a good place to stop off. I have serious trouble getting the plumber to give us a bill: he comes the next day to fix the problem, but the bill may be some time in coming (and is always cheaper than expected).

 

[Lindyboo]

Had a reply from the bod in question and he wants the money paid to him and will give me a receipt. He doesn’t ‘have accounts with everyone’, whatever that means. ‘We’re not cowboys’ he adds.

Have to say I’m not encouraged by what I can make out of his largely illiterate reply. He must surely have a five year old to hand who could express it better for him.

 

[LadyArowana]

Had a reply from the bod in question and he wants the money paid to him and will give me a receipt. He doesn’t ‘have accounts with everyone’, whatever that means. ‘We’re not cowboys’ he adds.

Have to say I’m not encouraged by what I can make out of his largely illiterate reply. He must surely have a five year old to hand who could express it better for him.

Now, this starts to smell a little of rodent to me. My personal feeling is that he should understand your reluctance and be offering some sort of compromise along the lines already suggested by others here. The two projects I have done, one large, one small, we never paid in advance like that. In fact for the small one there was a lot of rewiring and we had 2 electricians on site for a while and I actually offered the main contractor a progress payment as we had given him nothing and he had never dealt with us before. He said it was not needed and he would invoice when completed. For the large one we would pay based on a submitted schedule. In cases where I chose items that were from suppliers that contractor didn't have an account with ( tiles and some kitchen fittings ) I just got him a form and he opened an account and passed on the trade discount to us, simples.

 

[Feltwell]

Agreed - I'd be rather suspicious at that one. 2 pieces of major work that I've had done - one was staged payments once specific points were completed, the first of which was a small payment triggered by the day they arrived on site. Schedule was suggested by the contractor and I thought was fair so I went with what he wanted. Final 25% was at point of final completion.

On the second major piece of work the contractor initially didn't want paying at all until the end - then part way through the job he sheepishly asked for a part payment. He was doing a good job plus the size of the job turned out to be bigger than expected, so I agreed to his request. A bit of flexibility works both ways.

Any minor work, such as an electrician for a day, I expect to just see an invoice on completion.

 

[middi]

I reckon his name is Murphy, tows a twin wheel hobby, very street wise but not very literate, no fixed abode, the No plate is probably illegal, no tax on the car and he tells you he is a very trustworthy " jack of all trades". Don't tell me, he owns a transit van !!!!!.
To get money " up front" some people will tell you anything.

( sorry, I have a very suspicious mind )
On a more serious note, there are a lot of honest, but small, one or two man band operations out there. Unless these people come highly reccomended or you have personal knowledge of them or their work you have to assume that our " Murphy" is at it , again.

Middi

 

[Keithj]

Walk away. Find another person to do the job.

 

[Lindyboo]

I’ll drop him. Thanks all for your perspective and advice.

 

[CliffordPope]

I think it all depends on whether these are routine building materials or ordered specialy for the job.

Sand, cement, lime, etc are basics to the trade, and he should pay for them himself or have an account.
But if he has ordered special timber, guttering, expensive stainless steel mesh, or had to source matching old bricks or something like that, then I think it is reasonable for the client to pay.

 

[Gervase]

My thoughts exactly, many people who work in the building trades will have come across customers who think it is OK to pay 6 months after completion and only then after many many reminders to pay. Then there are the nit pickers who want a discount for whatever reason but a discount that only they see appropriate. Then there is the ''Ive lost my job and cannot pay'' people who still drive around in the M Series or new Merc but cannot find the money to pay you for the work you have done for them.
People are being more and more cautious these days, especially with the economic climate the way it is. It might be that in the near future paying up front will be the norm.

Very true. I have had several "jobs from hell" which, compounded with the recession, resulted in me putting the main business into liquidation because I simply couldn't afford to carry in excess of £20,000 of creditor's liabilities. Taking six months to pay is fairly common, unfortunately, as is the 'sorry, I've got my own cash-flow problem, can I pay you off at £100 a month?', when I've already paid for several thousand pounds-worth of materials up front.
Now I'm working on a smaller scale back in London, I'm asking for a third up front on jobs to avoid such problems, but even then am having the devil's own job getting the remaining two-thirds out of some customers! And everyone asks for a discount for cash, as if they think I don't declare my earnings to HMRC. It's tempting to suggest to them that they are inciting a conspiracy to defraud.
Everyone has a tale of woe about cowboy builders, but there are also plenty of cowboy clients who regard any tradesman as fair game. As such, I see no problem with getting a client to pay for materials up front; I order using my trade account, so they get the benefit of the cheaper price, but they pay.

 

[Flyfisher]

It's very fair to point out the builder's side of things as well and I'm sure there are 'clients from hell' as well, leading to frustration and grief all around (like that video link I posted earlier).

Surely the answer is to agree regular stage payments for completed works? The customer then only pays for completed work, so if the builder disappears into the night they at least have everything they've paid for (notwithstanding the hassle of finding another builder to finish the project), and the builder doesn't have to accrue a lot of credit for materials. Admittedly, the builder is still being paid in arrears, but probably not more than a week or two, which should be workable for any builder with a credit account.

So, for example, footings could be dug and the customer could be reasonably asked to pay for the work done at the end of the week. If they don't pay, alarm bells will ring and the builder may decide not to continue with the job until they do. If such things are clearly discussed during the project negotiations it should quickly become apparent about any side being evasive or unreasonable. Any potential customer insisting on not paying anything until the whole job is finished might well find that the formal quotation never arrives. :wink:

 

[middi]

I agree with FF. I have done a vast amount of small and some large restoration jobs in my time and always fully explained to my customers the process involved, all payments for work would have been agreed and expected on completion at various stages of progress.
I have never asked customers to pay anything in advance and made sure that, as already suggested, any materials " specials" would have been paid for directly by the customer. I must admit that in my case I had prior knowledge of my customers , or, I became well aquainted with them prior to accepting a job. No doubt they ( customers) did their own research and evaluation of my previous work before they engaged my services. There is always a risk, this should be discussed at the initial stages and should be incorporated withing the work in progress and paying stages as not to leave the contractor, or the customer, too exposed to losses.
Common sense and trust has to pay a good role as well. This is where a bit of time wasted on " research" on " customer/builder" profile will help.
Also one has to accept that nothing is guaranteed in life, s**t will happen when you least expect it. :wink:

Middi