Paying up-front for materials? Thoughts please.

[Lindyboo]

I know that it’s usually considered a no-no to pay a tradesman up-front for materials, but I wonder if forum members agree with that? Has it become the norm these days, or is requesting money first still the hallmark of a scoundrel? As you may guess, I’ve just been asked to stump up cost of materials in advance and my first instinct is to say no. My second is to consider it because he’s the only one that bothered to turn up and look at the job (and had to travel 50 miles to do so) and we're desperate.

 

[robgil]

What materials and how much?
Sometimes a builder will front the cost but there is a risk for him/her in doing so. If the materials buying is done by you and everything is delivered to the site then I cant see a problem with it.

 

[Lindyboo]

Up-front figure not yet submitted but I expect in region of £1200. It's for landscaping/building materials - gravel, edging and hardcore. I was thinking that if I go for it I'll get the invoices and materials direct to me, then at least I have the goods if the labour doesn't show up.

 

[Pford75]

Id be wary of any tradesman who doesnt have the cashflow to be able to purchase materials up front. If it's really non-negotiable and you dont have another option for someone to do the work, I would ask him what materials he needs and you can then order them yourself.

 

[Flyfisher]

If a builder is asking you to pay for materials up-front then it's likely he doesn't have an account with any suppliers. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, though I'd be curious to know why it's the case because it could be that he has a bad history and no one will offer him credit.

I have a Jewson account and can get up to 8 weeks to pay for materials, so any trader with such an account really shouldn't need to ask for money up-front for materials.

On the other hand, if a trader can avoid passing through all the material costs, he might be able to keep himself below the VAT threshold, which might be a competitive advantage for him if he doesn't have to charge VAT on his work. But if that was the case, I'd expect the trader to be asking you to directly purchase the materials rather than to pay him up-front.

So it might be a perfectly innocent request, but I'd still be wary.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I'd say if he needs money for materials then buy them yourself and get them delivered to you. Then even if you think your choice of builder is bad and you get rid of them, you still have the materials.

 

[Lindyboo]

This reply might appear twice – having trouble posting.

Anyway, he’s not VAT registered, but he’s a two-man band so probably can’t do enough work to get over the threshold. Good point though about him not having accounts. I know plenty of one-man bands who have accounts, so maybe he has bad credit.

If I go with him I’ll definitely get the stuff invoiced and delivered to me.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Always best to obtain your own materials, paid for by you and delivered to you---
Good Luck, you will find the right person to do the work.

 

[Lindyboo]

Jocelyn – thank you and I hope you’re right! It’s so hard to find anyone now. I keep hearing that the building trade is in difficulties – I’m not surprised as they never turn up. By the by, if anyone knows of a willing, honest soul in my area who wants building/landscaping work, do let me know!

 

[robgil]

There is of course the other reason , he has bought the materials before and ther customer has pulled out to go with a cheaper quote, leaving him with a load of materials and no where to store them.
Or his previous customer ripped him off and he is now struggling to get back on top.

If it were me and I had reason to be sus I would get a list of materials from the builder, I would then get a works schedule and buy the materials in myself as needed. That way you only pay the labour costs.

If they are having cash flow problems (which doesnt make them bad builders) I would pay labour costs segmentally as the work progressed.

To be fair though , are they builders or landscapers? Or both?

Edit - Shame you were not closer, I know a couple of very good builder/land scapers who specialise in period properties.

 

[Lindyboo]

Thanks robgil. He’s a landscaper who includes patio/driveway laying, but does other stuff too – we need some shallow drains re-laying which interfere with the garden layout and he was willing to do those, but the budget won’t stretch just yet, so he’s quoted us for separate parts of the job; gravel parking area, fencing, flagging, removal of trees and other stuff, so we can pick what we can afford.

Very few bods in that line of work down here (or any other, for that matter) and of the few available, about half didn’t respond to my contact. The others either took so long to reply that I’d given up on them – and I reckon if they can’t be bothered to get back quickly then they don’t really want the job – or, in one case, don’t do drives/patios etc.

I’m pondering whether to try Marshalls approved bods, which I recently discovered, though I suspect they’ll be out of my price range. Won’t know till I ask, though.

 

[Keithj]

"It all depends".

We were surprised when we wanted some minor stuff done. None of the people we called could be bothered - either didn't turn up to look at the job, or having agreed a price etc didn't show up to do the work. Happily, we hadn't paid anything upfront.

I mentioned this to a neighbour, who explained how the village works: there are some wasters around, and some good blokes. Information exchange, I think they call it. Anyway, we now know the people to call. Sometimes we have to wait, but the jobs get done right first time with no nonsense.

One chap - very reasonably priced - said "You can get your own stuff, or I'll get it for you: if I do, I will add 1.5% to what I pay". I reckoned that was well worth it.
The local painter provides his own brushes, sandpaper and such. We provide the paint.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Have you thought of asking in your local ( or nearby) Garden Centre--- have a look and see if they have some small ads displayed somewhere.

 

[Lindyboo]

Keithj – I know just what you mean about people not turning up to look at the job, or not showing up to do it. One of the problems round here as well, is getting quotes. Chap turns up, looks at the job, promises quote – takes up to four months for it to arrive, after chasing him to get it sent. Then chances are if you accept it he doesn’t respond – that’s happened so many times. If they can’t get a quote out within a month and have to be chased up it never bodes well.

Jocelyn – good idea and as it happens my (only) neighbour has just given me the name of a garden centre, who it turns out have a landscaping service, so I’ve just whizzed off an e-mail to them. There are a couple of other garden centres further afield too so I’ll do the same with them.

Thanks, all.

 

[AMc]

Many trades are great at their trade but they aren't skilled salespeople, accountants or customer relationship managers. Judging the quality of a landscape gardener by their ability to quote and invoice isn't necessarily going to get you the best job in the end, though I feel your pain with the no shows and endless chasing. IMHO lots of people working in building see what they're doing as their job e.g. bricklaying with some ancillary admin, they don't see themselves as running a business that builds walls so they expect good quality bricklaying to make them a living and don't understand why not quoting for a job for 8 weeks might mean they don't get the job when they're the better brickie.

Good trades are usually busy and have a waiting list of people they've worked for before who want them again. It can be the case that you need to be referred to a trade by someone they've worked for before to get them to take you seriously.

If the tradesman is having to travel 50 miles to look at the job, and did, and was then prepared to break it down into smaller jobs, I would have some assurance they wanted the work. It's possible that they have a relationship with a merchant who isn't able/willing to deliver materials that far from their patch without some cash upfront.

If it were me I would ask for a list of materials, open an account with a local merchant and order them to be delivered in your name. You may have to pay upfront on the first order but the delivery should be free as long as there is a substantial order. When I ordered materials through my builder he added 10% for handling the invoicing etc. but he had a standard discount that made it cheaper to order that way anyway.


When I was doing freelance work (different field) it wasn't unusual to ask for a 1/3rd of the quote on commencement with a new client to ensure they were serious and were actually in a position to pay. If they didn't want to trust us with 1/3rd of the money then we knew it might be foolhardy to invest days of effort on their job.

 

[Lindyboo]

AMc – good point. The bod who’s quoted is very amiable in person and makes a good impression but his written communication (e-mail) is truly awful – really abrupt and comes across as very rude. If I hadn’t had the chance to meet him early on I would’ve rejected him on the basis of his e-mails alone. In fact it’s his hopelessness at communication that’s thrown an additional spanner in the works – I agreed to give him the job several weeks ago on the basis he’d commence work end Aug/early Sep and thought that was that. He followed up my acceptance with some clarification on a minor point I’d raised but said otherwise he accepted my acceptance … Turns out now that what I thought was just further info re a done deal, was his way of re-quoting and he was awaiting another acceptance. Hence he’s now booked up for another month. Sigh.

Anyway, thanks for the alternative perspective on the situation, which is very helpful.

 

[Pford75]

I agree with much of what AMc says as to how many tradespeople think. However, I take a slightly different view on what deductions I should draw as the 'customer'.

For the smallest jobs, I can just about tolerate using the one-man band trades...but to be honest, if it really is a small job, I will probably do it myself. For the larger work, the consequences of sloppy business practice are just too significant to ignore. Someone might be an excellent plumber, but if he fails to turn up when he says or the job is delayed because he didn't order the parts in time, then that can have knock-on effects on other trades or my own time.

Our largest job on the house (reconstructing the wall post storm) cost just over £120k in total - I wouldn't have dreamed of paying anything in advance. We did agree stage payments (by work completed, not by date) and this eliminated 90% of the chancers.

As FF points out...it is so simple to get a credit account with builders merchants these days (I have one with Jewsons & one with Ridgeons) that I simply cannot believe that a professional tradesman is paying out for materials in advance. If cashflow is that tight for them, what chances of them declaring themselves bankrupt before the work is completed?

 

[Lindyboo]

I’ve just sent another e-mail to the bod asking for clarification on how his payment up-front idea works. If I can make head or tail of his reply I might get a better idea of his situation and I’ll base a decision on that.

 

[AMc]

If the upfront payment is actually for materials then I would simply tell the contractor what you are going to do.
- Tell me what materials you need by (date)
- I will order and arrange delivery to site by (date)
- You will commence work on or before (date) with payment of £x at completion by (date)

If the money is actually a retainer to start work, not to "buy materials" then he will have to say so.
If he is just not good at communication then if you set out how you want it to work he'll likely be happy to agree and get on with the things he does well.

Finally - if you think something is not right then I would back out before you've committed any more of your time and money or his. I wish I'd trusted my gut impression on a brick layer who had plenty of loyalty to his friends who got him onto my job but none whatsoever to me or the work he did I've wasted hours and hours putting right an elementary error he made but didn't own up to. If I'd trusted my first impression he'd have done one day and never come back.

 

[Lindyboo]

Thanks AMc, good advice. I suspect there are very few forum members without a tale of woe caused by builders etc. In fact I’ve thought about renaming our house ‘The OK Corral’ because it’s had so many cowboys in it.