Painting strategy.

[88v8]

Started the windows with Demidekk.
Abi said it's not nice to use. Untrue - it's horrible.
Water paint. Blobby, won't brush out, doesn't cling to corners, dries on the brush
Can't be doing with it.
Do feel a little sorry for the current generation which may grow up imagining that this is how paint is. Nothing like the ease of painting with oil.

So, plan B. Or perhaps it's plan C. Anyhow.
To the south, I'll use linseed. Not affected by the sun, can even apply when the sun's on it, and being southerly it will dry. Prime bare wood with a 50/50 of boiled linseed and turpentine. (Note: the Old House Store sells Allback, their postage charges are outrageous. One litre delivered, £60).
To the north I'll use oil paint. Goes on easily, and the sun hardly gets round there, so it will last. Sikkens AZ is my preferred oil. Gloss. Gloss lasts longer.
To the east and west oil won't be as durable and linseed will dry too slowly, so I suppose I'll use the confounded water-based muck, may as well use Demidekk as I've bought it and it's supposed to be durable.

The colours won't match. Never mind. Umpteen shades of cream. Don't all have to be the same.

Perhaps this should have been a grump.
Anyway, the point is, don't have to use the same paint everywhere.

Ivor

 

[plasticpigeon]

I used some alkai resistant paint on a window frame that I had stripped with caustic peelaway as even after the acid spray it didn't take paint well. Fine on the wood, but completely messed up the putty. It dried and cracked on the putty, but the putty under was soft on the surface and any other paint just bubbled off. Nothing bloody works. I shall have to scrape it out and putty it again. I shall use up my weird ultimate opaque oil based satin, and just use gloss the next time round, which will probably be next year as nothing lasts on the south facing bay window and door. You're right should have been a grump.

 

[Flyfisher]

A timely topic as I'm currently awaiting four new bespoke windows and a door to be delivered, all to be on south facing walls and painted black to match all the others. Needless to say I'm planning to use linseed paint and will be using the scheme Ivor mentioned, although I've previously used a less diluted primer coat of linseed oil before painting - 25% I think.

Since Holkham stopped selling linseed paints I've been using http://www.linseedpaintcompany.co.uk/ Lot's of info and guides on their website.

For our north facing windows I've used Sadolin Superdec and that has held up well, though it's hopeless on the few south facing windows I've tried.

I've also had great success with Dulux Exterior black gloss for a new north-facing door. Custom made (by our very own Middi!) in Sapele, I used aluminium primer before applying one coat of Dulux undercoat and two coats of Dulux Exterior gloss. That was about eight years ago and the paintwork is still in excellent condition.

 

[Abi Cott]

There are some resin/water based paints that are starting to be a good experience to use. This ISN'T one of them. The top coat is manageable. The primer is VILE. I nearly lost my window guy after his first experience of using this stuff. He has stayed on because I've told him to go straight in with the top coat and not prime at all.

 

[Zebra]

This is a timely thread for me too, since my windows need repainting this year. I shall be using linseed oil paint again (thanks for the supplier recommendation there, Flyfisher). The cills have all peeled in the five years since the windows were new, but being south facing in full sun I reckon anything would.

 

[livias]

Another supplier to consider ... I get my linseed oil paint from Ingilby. Ted ingilby will colour match too and pricesare very competitive
http://www.ingilby.co.uk/

 

[Me!]

Started the windows with Demidekk.
Abi said it's not nice to use. Untrue - it's horrible.
Water paint. Blobby, won't brush out, doesn't cling to corners, dries on the brush

What type of brush are you using? I have always used natural bristle brushes for all my painting in the past with oil paints, however they are terrible with Demidekk. The best ones I've found for this are these synthetic fibre Wilko ones http://www.wilko.com/paint-brushes+rollers/wilko-best-brush-set-5pk/invt/0343138

What are the problems people are having with the primer though? I just slap it on, one coat all over and three coats wet on wet on the end grain and I've not had any problems with it.

 

[88v8]

My brush selection tends to be rather random. Whatever is the right size.
I too find no real problem with the primer, although I have no great love for runny paint, I recall years ago Dulux had some sort of magic primer in an oblong metal tin that was completely runny, it soon went in the bin.
It's the Demiddekk top coat I dislike.
Having said that, do notice that the Visir primer is very slow to dry over knotting. Four days, it's still tacky.

The blurb on the Linseed Paint Co website put me off. Wrinkling. Quite enough of that going on in the mirror without adding to it. The black Allback on the garage doors shows no sign of deterioration, even though it's East facing and gets very hot, so I've bought more Allback. The temperature difference between black & white is spectacular - many years ago our neighbour restored his southerly windows, painted the sills black the rest white, the sills were so hot he couldn't put his hand on them, and they soon cracked. Found the same with our green boxing and cream sashes. I reckon dark colours south facing is a job creation scheme.

Our southerlies are going to be Vintage White whatever that may be, just so long as it's not Omo. The Demidekk is Honeysuckle, which translates as creamy yellow, the Sikkens oil is Country Cream iirc.
None of it will be whiter than white, because whiter than white didn't exist in ye olde days. And neither did water-based paint. Oh, alright, limewash.

Ivor

 

[Abi Cott]

Started the windows with Demidekk.
Abi said it's not nice to use. Untrue - it's horrible.
Water paint. Blobby, won't brush out, doesn't cling to corners, dries on the brush

What type of brush are you using? I have always used natural bristle brushes for all my painting in the past with oil paints, however they are terrible with Demidekk. The best ones I've found for this are these synthetic fibre Wilko ones http://www.wilko.com/paint-brushes+rollers/wilko-best-brush-set-5pk/invt/0343138

What are the problems people are having with the primer though? I just slap it on, one coat all over and three coats wet on wet on the end grain and I've not had any problems with it.

The primer just doesn't seem to dry it is staying tacky for days and it peels if you sand it. I thought it was me but my window restorer has had exactly the same issue with it.

With regards to brushes, you should always use a synthetic brush with water based paints for the best finish. A paint tech course I went on went into great technical detail about why, but it boils down to 'pig's bristle goes floppy in water'. We got to try a whole bunch of different brushes (something I don't think you would ever really do in real life) and a synthetic brush makes cutting in and detail work one hell of a lot easier. Pig is best for oil, synthetic is best for water.

 

[Me!]

The primer just doesn't seem to dry it is staying tacky for days and it peels if you sand it.

Sounds like you either have a bad tin, or you are putting it on too thick. Remember it only goes on bare wood, not on previously painted surfaces and the instructions say "The primer must be brushed out thoroughly. Apply 3-4 coats wet-on-wet to the end grains/cut surfaces." Full instructions here - http://www.jotun.com/Datasheets/Dow...20__VISIR+Oljegrunning+klar+(EU)__Euk__GB.pdf.
Remember that it is basically meant to soak in rather than leave a coating on the surface, the instructions say "The primer must be brushed out thoroughly to prevent the product from forming film on the substrate".

Personally I have only used the clear primer, not the pigmented, as my top coat is dark brown. I was told by the chap in the shop that the clear version does dry better at lower (Swedish) temperatures, but maybe it just dries generally better in all conditions. Mine is definitely fully dry, hard and overpaintable in 48 hours of Suffolk spring days.

 

[Me!]

My brush selection tends to be rather random. Whatever is the right size.

Well, Abi has kindly explained the science behind what I found by trial and error. Forget natural bristle brushes with this paint. Synthetic fibre ones with the 'feathered' ends on the bristles are much better.

 

[Flyfisher]

The blurb on the Linseed Paint Co website put me off. Wrinkling.

I think the 'wrinkling' risk is mentioned because of the faster drying time of their formulation compared to Allback: "They are both difficult to use, for both are slow drying. The Swedish paint is slower drying; mine dries much faster but the danger of wrinkling is thereby increased. "

Whatever linseed paint is used, the key thing is to apply thin coats; that not only helps with drying times it reduces the risk of wrinkling. In fact, in my experience, it eliminates wrinkling because I've never had that problem.

Also, "The Swedish paint is prone to develop mildew; mine is completely fungus free (there is a whole section on this at the bottom of the page).", so that's another risk, though not one that the user can actually do anything about in terms of how it is applied.

Having said that, if you've had no problems with Allback then why change? Applies to anything really, no point changing just for the sake of it.

The black Allback on the garage doors shows no sign of deterioration, even though it's East facing and gets very hot, so I've bought more Allback. The temperature difference between black & white is spectacular

I quite agree about the temperatures that can be attained by black paint (of any description). Our front door is east facing and painted black. On a sunny morning I can feel the heat on the INSIDE of the door (it's an old door and not that thick, but even so!). However, I've not had a problem with the linseed paint cracking, though I have had a problem with the door panels themselves cracking

Black - a rather ridiculous colour in practice. :roll:

 

[Greg.Hobson]

Black - a rather ridiculous colour in practice. :roll:

It's Friday, early and my wife is still at her mother's from a "Girly night" last night, so there's no-one here to tell me not to do this, but isn't Black the absence of colour?

Just saying.

 

[88v8]

Thankyou for the observations about brushes. Tomorrow I shall add a diversion to our shopping trip, and visit a good decorators' merchant. Considering that I am fond of painted woodwork, my brush selection maintenance and usage leaves a lot to be desired.

Mildew was another potential issue that deterred me from using linseed to the north. Don't think the black has mildewed, but how would one know?

Popped out just now to inspect yesterday's linseed. The shelter I put up has protected it from heavy overnight rain, but it's still wet. and I mean wet. Probably ladled it on overly thick. No painting today.

Yes, the Visir does seem to be more of a stabilising primer. That point Mel quoted about not letting it form a film on the substratum, I thought it meant, well actually I didn't know what it meant so I was lucky it only hung up over the knotting. I guess it needed to go on before the knotting.
Difficult on previously painted work to get the surface completely bare so the primer can sink in. And old putty....
Didn't sand the Visir before I applied the topcoat. I always sand between coats. Getting sloppy in my old age.

Ivor

 

[Flyfisher]

Black - a rather ridiculous colour in practice. :roll:

It's Friday, early and my wife is still at her mother's from a "Girly night" last night, so there's no-one here to tell me not to do this, but isn't Black the absence of colour?

Just saying.

Indeed, though more correctly it's an absence of light ('colour' being something our brains invent for us :wink: ). This means that for a paint (dye, ink, etc) to appear black, it has to absorb all incident light and reflect none of it (or, in practice, as close to this as possible). Absorbing all light means absorbing all the energy of the light and it is this energy that causes the increase in temperature of the light-absorbing material, not to mention the physical and chemical breakdown of the paint compound. At least, I think that's the gist of it.

 

[Zebra]

Another supplier to consider ... I get my linseed oil paint from Ingilby. Ted ingilby will colour match too and pricesare very competitive
http://www.ingilby.co.uk/

Thank you livias for this supplier recommendation. Just been on the phone to them and they're very helpful!

 

[Flyfisher]

I didn't know Ingilby's made linseed paint; until now I've only used them for limewash. I should have asked as I know they used to make all manner of paints and coatings from marine paints, antifouling and specialist lead paints. But you're right about how helpful they are. Ted is a lovely chap but be warned - if you do visit then be prepared for a long (and very interesting!) chat. Fortunately, they are very generous with the tea.

 

[Me!]

Thankyou for the observations about brushes. Tomorrow I shall add a diversion to our shopping trip, and visit a good decorators' merchant. Considering that I am fond of painted woodwork, my brush selection maintenance and usage leaves a lot to be desired.

Mildew was another potential issue that deterred me from using linseed to the north. Don't think the black has mildewed, but how would one know?

Popped out just now to inspect yesterday's linseed. The shelter I put up has protected it from heavy overnight rain, but it's still wet. and I mean wet. Probably ladled it on overly thick. No painting today.

Yes, the Visir does seem to be more of a stabilising primer. That point Mel quoted about not letting it form a film on the substratum, I thought it meant, well actually I didn't know what it meant so I was lucky it only hung up over the knotting. I guess it needed to go on before the knotting.
Difficult on previously painted work to get the surface completely bare so the primer can sink in. And old putty....
Didn't sand the Visir before I applied the topcoat. I always sand between coats. Getting sloppy in my old age.

Ivor

I'm sure Ivor will know this already, but as clarity for anyone else trying Jotun paint, the primer is not water based. So I do use a natural bristle brush for the primer, and the synthetic fibre brush for the top coats.

 

[88v8]

The linseed has still not dried hard. Slight drag to the fingers.
Note to self: do not use linseed over Visir.

I started the other south window. The 'quick repaint' has become bogged down in rust & rot. Arrrgh.

Ivor

 

[Abi Cott]

Two coats of Jotun top coat went on the door today. I was pretty happy with it. Rather too fast drying for my tastes, but i thought the 'drag' was pretty good for a water based paint. Its been a faff to use, but if it stands up to it's advertised recoat requirements I'm not going to complain.