Ogden Tobacco Factory listing

[renewablejohn]

The Ogden Tobacco factory in Liverpool has recently been listed as the site is being redeveloped however I am concerned that the Engine house has not been listed even though it contains all the original machinery in situ and in working order.English Heritage contends that the building itself is not of sufficient merit to require listing and the machinery inside can be transferred to other museums. I would contend that it is very difficult to relocate a 150 tonne working hydraulic accumulator to a museum and it should be preserved were it is. The only other working hydraulic accumulator I have heard of is at St Pancras station operating the lifts using the force of the engines hitting the buffers. Can anyone help to locate other accumulators or are we going to lose another piece of our industrial heritage.

 

[Nemesis]

This should be listed as curtilage surely, if the building and machinery were part of the working of the listed building?

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/720402

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/720407

Maybe not, if it's the office part which is listed. Pretty grim I agree. I'll make more enquiries but I suspect nothing can be done.

As I said in another thread - it's all rather too little too late for Liverpool and listing. As with many other places.

Ogden's Tobacco Company
Ogden's Tobacco Company was founded by Thomas Ogden in 1860 when he opened a small retail shop in Liverpool's Park Lane. Within a short time he had established several branches throughout the city and in six years his own factory in St James' Street. In 1870 additional premises were acquired in Cornwallis Street and by 1890 Ogden's had six factories in Liverpool. The present factory at Boundary Lane was built in 1899 and all operations were concentrated at this site when it opened in 1901.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/605960

 

[Flyfisher]

It also inspired a rather good album in the sixties by the Small Faces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdens'_Nut_Gone_Flake

 

[Penners]

Well remembered, FF. I've often wondered why the Small Faces don't seem to be held in such esteem today as some other great bands of that era. They were outstanding - edgy, energetic and great musicians. Itchycoo Park, Lazy Sunday, All or Nothing... Fabulous stuff.

 

[Penners]

What was the name of that ex-farmer-turned-TV-personality who used to advertise Ogdens St Bruno? Was it Ted something-or-other?

 

[Nemesis]

There was a hydraulic accumulator at Tower Bridge but not now working.

Swing Bridge:

http://sine.ncl.ac.uk/view_structure_information.asp?struct_id=910

Armstrong's of Scotswood, Newcastle.

http://www.gov.im/harbours/swingbridge.xml

As indeed is:
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/details/default.aspx?pid=1&id=391498

http://sine.ncl.ac.uk/view_structure_information.asp?struct_id=651

Sad but I suspect the end result at Ogden's will be that the machinery will be scrapped. I can't see who would take it.

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/h/hydraulic_power_in_london/index1.shtml

Pity that Fred Dibnah is now no longer with us!

 

[Flyfisher]

What was the name of that ex-farmer-turned-TV-personality who used to advertise Ogdens St Bruno? Was it Ted something-or-other?

I remember Ted Moult was an ex-farmer-turned-TV-personality, but I only remember him advertising Everest double glazing ("fit the best, fit Everest") not tobacco, so maybe the wrong 'Ted'?

Sad but I suspect the end result at Ogden's will be that the machinery will be scrapped. I can't see who would take it.

Sadly, I suspect you're right. Preserving large industrial machines can be quite a problem because the skills needed to operate and maintain them are becoming scarcer all the time. A friend was one of the 'Greasy Gang' members of the Trevithick society that rebuilt the Levant Mine winding engine in Cornwall and still helps to operate it for the NT during the summer months. The health and safety issues alone were major issues to overcome. New certification and insurance requirements have put many steam-operated engines into 'non-working storage' because of the increasing costs involved.

Of course, such engineering masterpieces can be preserved as static displays, although just finding a suitable space is difficult enough, but such 'machine corpses' always seem a rather sad sight to me compared with a living, steaming, working machine.

 

[Nemesis]

No, I suspect it won't be preserved as there's nowhere to put it and no-one able/willing to pay the cost of removal anyhow. It's not to do with the skills.

Beamish is the remotest possibilty, but out of context maybe not.

 

[Penners]

machine corpses' always seem a rather sad sight to me compared with a living, steaming, working machine.

I wholeheartedly agree. Engines are another entire lifeform, with a spellbinding beauty all their own. Obviously the "Miss Worlds" are the gorgeous Victorian steam engines, with their melodious chuffing, gleaming brass, spinning governors, reciprocating valves and connecting rods... and so on. But I adore all kinds of engine. The sound of a Fordson tractor's diesel on tickover is one that could lull me to sleep. And as for the exhaust note of an accelerating Aston Martin.....

 

[Nemesis]

If removed it's not very possible to ever work the machinery again of course. However, it sounds not unique enough, sadly, to list, and without that any developer won't be interested in retaining it.

As it says under the Geograph pic:

Ogden's Tobacco Factory, Liverpool
Behind the pretty office block. The chimney is on a power house with two large Browett, Lindley steam engines. This is all about to be demolished as only the pretty bit is listed. Attempts to get the power house listed failed, although we are now down to only one other two engine power house of that type (and as far as I know none with more than two). The rubbish is pretty disgraceful inside a very secure complex.

 

[renewablejohn]

It is rather annoying as I know a scheme has already been offered to save the entire engine house in working condition as a renewable energy combined heat and power plant for the new development but the developers would rather take the easy route of demolishing everything that is not listed.

 

[Nemesis]

And everything that is if they thought they could get away with it.

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/News/newsdetail_2426.asp

Unless something unique can be said about it, sadly there will be nothing new to seek a review of the refusal to list.

Annoying isn't the word really!

Who is the developer?

 

[renewablejohn]

Nemesis

The unique aspect is the hydraulic accumulator which was used to operate the tobacco presses which I believe some have been saved and put in storage. This is why I was originally asking about the hydraulic accumulator as I am unaware of any insitu industrial hydraulic press. A lot of manufacturing industry relied on this hydraulic power and it seems to be totally lost.

Fly fisher

We do not have a problem with the engines as they can be removed and used elsewhere. I am at present moving 2 300kw Bellis and Morcom engines ready for reuse.

 

[Nemesis]

Have you discussed this with EH?

 

[Flyfisher]

Fly fisher
We do not have a problem with the engines as they can be removed and used elsewhere. I am at present moving 2 300kw Bellis and Morcom engines ready for reuse.

That's good to hear. I didn't mean to suggest that such things can't be done, only that such projects are not simple and the people and skills involved are not as widespread as they once were. The friend I previously mentioned is helping someone to build a new firebox/boiler for a steam traction engine using the same methods as originally used, i.e. hot riveting. Ironically, this is the only practical DIY method these days because although welding would be a simpler and faster construction method, the quality standards, regulations and inspection regime for welded pressure vessels are very onerous, putting the costs well beyond the means of most private individuals.
But I digress (unless 'period property' can be stretched to include engineering heritage ).

 

[Nemesis]

Removal from the site and its wider context takes away a great deal of importance and historic value of the equipment.

 

[Flyfisher]

I think that depends. If you're interested in the architectural and social context then it's probably true, but from a purely engineering context then it's probably not - unless museums the world over have got it completely wrong.

 

[Nemesis]

Well, it's obviously OK to remove the equipment then and stick it in a museum. Bit like those removed facades and interiors in places like the V and A.

I've sent a link to this thread to a few people I thought might be able to help, too late now to rescind the e-mails, clearly it's not a problem.

 

[Flyfisher]

Aim high, yes, but be prepared to compromise. Surely it's better to save an engine in a museum than let it be destroyed along with its original building? Presumably all those facades and interiors now in the V&A would have been destroyed along with their original buildings and context. Is worthwhile preservation only "all or nothing"?

 

[Nemesis]

Is this machinery going to go to a museum to sit without being able to be operated?

The accumulator seems to be the important part, but that needs to be put in its context and its machinery and building and site, to tell its story. Unlikely a museum will do that.