Oak tree

[Bogart]

I know my topic is not entirely apt for here but I thought I would run it past you guys anyway. I am planning to build a large shed on a piece of agricultural land attached to to my listed property curtilage.
Should be simple to get planning permission, until the woman next door, an environmental freak, objected saying was too near an oak tree, 6 years old, growing on her property. She suggested I move my shed by 5m.
The council planning officer visited and said did not see a problem but would consult her "arborist". He has now come up with the bright idea I move the shed 10m quoting BS5837:2012 Trees in relation to
design, demolition ,construction etc etc.
All this to my mind is a red herring. I would like your opinion. Am I taking the wrong stance by saying the tree is not mine, is not on my property so why should I have to be the one who gives way?
I have told planning that planting an oak tree on a boundary line is, in my opinion, stupid in the first place. There is nothing to stop me pruning this tree which now overhangs my side of the boundary. Nor
is there anything to stop me getting a digger and hypothetically doing the same to the roots.

 

[george2019]

You could prune it, but you've have to offer the cuttings back to the owner of the tree. Digging a hole close to a boundary might also raise Party Wall or Party Fence Wall issues, depending on the arrangement.

Short answer is trees have root protection zones and should be looked after. We loose enough trees every year to not be cutting them down if there's an easy way not to. Alternatively, foundation systems based on mini-piles (e.g. Green Grid https://greengridsystems.com/) can be constructed over tree roots without causing compaction or damage to the tree itself.

And hey, at least it's an Oak and not a wretched line of Leylandii which my neighbor planted.

Edit, found this from the RHS:

"What if the tree falls over after I cut the roots?
As well as rights, you have the same liabilities as for cutting off branches. So for example, if by reason of cutting through your neighbour's tree roots, the tree is weakened and falls over, you would be liable for any damage it causes. Thus it is important to exercise reasonable care before cutting any tree roots and seek professional advice for anything but the most minor work."

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=1022

 

[88v8]

Topic entirely apt. I would expect any period property to come with a decent selection of mature trees, and when we were looking we crossed off some where there were no trees or they had been mangled..

Oaks in particular support a more diverse population of fauna than any other tree species.

In our last house we had a small garden - around a quarter acre - but there were thirty trees. One of them was so close to the house that when we built an extension< I designed it to avoid the tree and I made the scaffolders cut their boards to fit around it. So I'm quite keen on trees, I think we should all plant more.
Indeed, I think it should be one of the Govt's jobs to double our tree cover by 2030.

Imho, planting the tree on the boundary of an agricultural field was a sensible move. Unless her garden is very large, the tree would eventually outgrow the space and some future owner would take the saw to it, or worse.
After all, where are most of our major countryside trees - in hedgerows, in other words in boundaries.

Now, a tree six years old isn't very big. But she's thinking ahead. And if the tree is harmed, that's six years she can't get back.

So, a large shed. A sizeable field ? Perhaps you could offer to plant three oaks in your field, as an offset. Then you'll have done something good for the world, instead of harming her tree.

Ivor

 

[Bogart]

You have not met the woman, there is no reasoning with her. Only on my side is it agricultural land on her side is residential. It is sitting in a meadow of at least half an acre. So, in my opinion, there was no reason if she wanted an oak it could not have gone somewhere else in this meadow.
I am not trying to be deliberately awkward as to the siting of this shed in the agricultural plot. For other reasons, ie large pond in middle, not an exposed location, not under any of my trees etc this spot was choosen.

 

[Pennyviz]

The regulations are available:

http://www.crawley.gov.uk/pub_livx/groups/operational/documents/plappcomment/ehfp2040459_attachment_1.pdf

I guess it depends on your foundations and what sort of shed? If it was a simple lean to with MOT base then a simple root protection might be a way forward? perhaps you could quote 4.5.10 of the regs back - I would guess that a 6year old tree falls into the moveable young tree bracket? And it doesn't have a TPO on it?

There are definitely ways forward but it will cost money to employ a specialist who can advise and you may have to pay to get it moved to a safe distance.

Penny

 

[MatthewC]

The regulations are available:

http://www.crawley.gov.uk/pub_livx/groups/operational/documents/plappcomment/ehfp2040459_attachment_1.pdf

I guess it depends on your foundations and what sort of shed? If it was a simple lean to with MOT base then a simple root protection might be a way forward? perhaps you could quote 4.5.10 of the regs back - I would guess that a 6year old tree falls into the moveable young tree bracket? And it doesn't have a TPO on it?

The size given on para 4.5.10 (150 mm circumference at 1.5 metre about ground) is the definition used by my council to determine if it is legally a tree. I'd be surprised if a six year oak is that size already. If it isn't that size then it is legally not a tree (so therefore cannot have a TPO) and so the rules might not even apply? Or it could be moved anyway??

In any case, para 5.6.2 might give you some help as it could be said that she hadn't taken note of it in planting the tree in that position close to the boundary - certainlly she has not allowed for the spread of the mature tree.

Best of luck!

Matthew

 

[Flyfisher]

Lots of info here about the legal issues concerning trees: https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/trees.html

 

[Bogart]

The tree at a height of 1.5 m has a trunk diameter of 70mm . At only 6 yrs old I would consider it possible to move it as the whole thing is only around 4m high.
As stated before I consider no thought was given as to future growth of the tree, and should not have been planted there in the first place. I am not sure if
Cadent, the gas distribution people, are aware of such a tree as it is only some 10m from a high pressure gas pipeline passing below ground.

 

[eezageeza]

Did you mean trunk circumference 70mm ? Also, a six year old oak should be much taller than 1.5mts. Can we have some pictures?

Whatever statistics are correct, an oak as small/young as that can easily be moved, and there should be no issues building near to it as its roots will be small and vigorous enough to cope with any injuries anyway. How close to it are you wanting to build, and what sort of foundations?

 

[CliffordPope]

Does the 6 years mean from planting the acorn or from buying a sapling from the garden centre?

 

[Bogart]

Did you mean trunk circumference 70mm ? Also, a six year old oak should be much taller than 1.5mts. Can we have some pictures?

Whatever statistics are correct, an oak as small/young as that can easily be moved, and there should be no issues building near to it as its roots will be small and vigorous enough to cope with any injuries anyway. How close to it are you wanting to build, and what sort of foundations?

No at a height of 1.5m above ground the trunk has a diameter of 70mm.

 

[Bogart]

[/img]The tree is 4.3m high as measured today. Attached is a photo which ably shows the proximity to the boundary fenceline. I have no idea as to how the 6yr has been arrived at.

 

[eezageeza]

OK, that makes sense. I can believe that's a six year old tree. It is a pretty dopey place to have planted it though; whoever the neighbours were there would always be a good chance they wouldn't want it overhanging the boundary, and in years to come that is going to hang over big time!

You didn't say how close you wanted to build, or what sorts of foundations you planned. Presumably something close, and large ?

Has the planners arborist indicated you will not get permission because of the tree ?

If so, the only solutions I can suggest are :

1. Your neighbour could move the tree (in the dormant season). This is possible, but not easy with a tree of that size, and oaks do not transplant easily.
2. Offer to buy your neighbour a new tree, of the same size, for her to plant somewhere else - not cheap, but may workable as part of the general bulding project expense.

 

[Bogart]

The shed/barn is proposed to be 2m from the fence. She suggested 5m and the loony at the planning dept came up with 10m. I am still trying to get someone to answer my
question "why 10m"? I am happy to say go to 3m inside my boundary but no further. Trying to placate the women is a pointless exercise. The planning so far after 13 weeks have not
made any decision. All they have said is submit a new drawing with the distance being 10m and it will be passed. To which I replied tell me on what basis I need to move it 10m.

 

[eezageeza]

10mts is probably an estimate of the eventual root zone of the mature tree - so it would keep building and tree roots entirely separate.

I would stick to my guns and press the pp for building 2mts from the boundary; that trees roots wont have spread much into that area so you wont do it any great harm, and I suspect the BS spec of 10 mts is advisory rather than a pp requirement.

 

[CliffordPope]

There appears from the photo to be a long run of fence beyond the tree, with nothing significant growing on the other side. Why not just move the shed along well clear of the oak?

 

[george2019]

Have you given any thought to the foundation design, by the way? If you're on clay and building is to Building Regulations, you'll want to get as far away as possible. All calculations for trees are based on mature size and oak trees have a high water demand.

 

[Bogart]

There appears from the photo to be a long run of fence beyond the tree, with nothing significant growing on the other side. Why not just move the shed along well clear of the oak?

1. That exposes the shed to winds coming across the farmers field
2 Is further away each time I need access to the machinery inside.

 

[Bogart]

Have you given any thought to the foundation design, by the way? If you're on clay and building is to Building Regulations, you'll want to get as far away as possible. All calculations for trees are based on mature size and oak trees have a high water demand.

My arguement is why is the onus on me. It will be a 150mm concrete slab. Building regulations do not apply. As you correctly say oak trees need lots of water so let her move her tree, not me move my shed!

 

[george2019]

Have you given any thought to the foundation design, by the way? If you're on clay and building is to Building Regulations, you'll want to get as far away as possible. All calculations for trees are based on mature size and oak trees have a high water demand.

My arguement is why is the onus on me. It will be a 150mm concrete slab. Building regulations do not apply. As you correctly say oak trees need lots of water so let her move her tree, not me move my shed!

You said a large shed, but less that 15m^2? As you want to be close to a boundary, BR will be needed if larger than that. A 150mm slab on subbase will be susceptible to the oak tree cracking it up when it grows a bit bigger, especially in a shrinkable clay area.

The tree is there first so have to work with it I'm afraid.