Oak framing

[Penners]

All of which gives each person about 1.3 acres of forest/woodland each.
A far cry from the 6 acres that is supporting Rob's enterprise and a sobering illustration of how many people we're really asking this planet to support.

But the equation doesn't take account of the fact that we don't all have timberframe houses. There are other natural building materials available.

For example, in wide areas of East Anglia, you can find thousands of flints per acre of field just popping up to the surface and begging to be turned into a charming little cottage. These satisfy all of Biff's green criteria. What's more their removal from the land is a positive benefit to the farmer.

 

[Flyfisher]

I wasn't seriously suggesting everyone would have to live in timber-frame buildings after 2050, just picking up on Biff's comment about post-fossil-fuel lifestyles and curious about how much land really is available for each person. I suspect it is almost impossible to guess what the eventual reality will be.

As for flint, absolutely right, very important in East Anglia. We are not far from Grimes Graves, a major neolithic flint mining site. My wife remembers playing there with her sister when it was still possible to crawl around the tunnels, but these days the tunnels are all barred off and it is only possible to view them from one main shaft - H&S considerations I suppose. Still very interesting though.

so these are made then shipped to site ?

what sort of cost are they (I know thats a piece of string question)

there was a timber frame building on ebay a while ago.

I once found a website selling complete (used) timber-frames (and other oak products), some imported from France. Mostly old barns as I recall. Obviously the prices varied with the size (and one was huuuge) but the 'normal' sized ones seemed to be around £50k. Unfortunately, I can't remember the website address.

I also met someone on holiday last year who was having a brand new green oak-framed house built in north Norfolk. He said everything was CAD-designed and machine cut, then shipped to the prepared base in pieces and assembled on site. He said it took less than a fortnight. I wasn't nosey enough to ask the price though.

Finally, did anyone see 'It's Not Easy Being Green' on BBC2 on Thursday (I think)? This time, Mustachio is touring the country helping people with their own 'green' projects, one of which was a vast timber-frame building. It'll be interesting watching how that progresses.

 

[biffvernon]

I thought I'd read some where that a reason for squaring off timbers was because the outer wood and bark is softer wood and therefore more susceptible to insect and fungal attack. Could this be true?

Most trees have an outer layer of sapwood and an inner layer of heartwood. Often the heartwood is much more resistant to fungal and woodboring insect attack. In an oak, the sapwood is typically a couple of inches thick and the rest is all heartwood. It is easy to spot as there is a distinct colour change. The heartwood has much more tannin and other chemicals that are poisonous to creatures of decay and there is less sugar and all things nice that the bugs can feed off than in the sapwood. The sapwood cannot be relied upon to keep what strength it has for long if there is any moisture about so is best removed from the timber if it is to be used in an exposed situation.

But I think beams are sqared to make them square - if you just wanted to remove all the sapwood you would end up with a round beam.

 

[plumbers mate]

>> with regards to hovels and terraced housing, I was trying to highlight the importance of affordable housing and merely making a comparison in standards of living. <<

I have difficulty with the concept that a hovel was built as that - not as a cottage that has degenerated into a hovel but as a type of cottage in itself.

(1685 - Dunston, Coal owner Charles Montague discussed building hovels with his agent)

 

[Nemesis]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Slideshow/slideshowContentFrameFrag.jhtml?xml=/property/2005/07/27/upixhovel.xml


(Sad that people are still demolishing historic timber frame buildings and flogging them off. Still, Harmondworth Barn will likely suffer such a fate. Plenty of timber going spare there I think soon... )

 

[Moo]

I have difficulty with the concept that a hovel was built as that - not as a cottage that has degenerated into a hovel but as a type of cottage in itself.

(1685 - Dunston, Coal owner Charles Montague discussed building hovels with his agent)

Does anyone know what, exactly, the word 'hovel' meant in 1685? It would be interesting to know if (and how, and when) the meaning of the word has changed over the centuries.

 

[skier-hughes]

I'm not old enough to know that one, but someone is :wink:

 

[Nemesis]

I suspect it meant then a simple basic crude one roomed dwelling, a shelter in which to live, as in the example to which I posted the link. Built to house those who toiled for a living. It can also mean an open shed. From Middle English hut.


http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/help/help.asp?code=BTThes/h/71362.htm

People were possibly once of lower value than cattle of course!

It seems to have degenerated over time to mean something unfit in which to live, although when built presumably hovels were considered basic but sufficient. Lack of maintenance may have caused many problems of course - mud and thatch do degenerate if not cared for.

Many building acts (and landowner improvements - it was considered A Good Thing by the enlightened landowner to consider the plight of the deserving poor whom you housed) since that time have sought to improve the amenities for residents - terraced housing in particular was the subject of a number of acts, intended to improve the lot of the poor, although not all terraced housing was built to house workers such as miners, mill workers of railway workers, some of it was and is much more grand. Bath terraces, no 10 Downing Street...

http://www.barterbooks.co.uk/bb/barter.nsf/SearchEngineView/40A0605CC79342D480256BEB005745D0

 

[biffvernon]

Hovel
1358, "roofed passage, vent for smoke," later "shed for animals" (1435), of unknown origin. Meaning "shed for human habitation; rude or miserable cabin" is from 1625. It also sometimes meant "canopied niche for a statue or image" (1463).

Hovel
An open shed for sheltering cattle, or protecting produce, etc., from the weather.
A poor cottage; a small, mean house; a hut.

Hovel
The fruit of a flower called the Palace.

Twaddle had a hovel,
Twiddle had a palace;
Twaddle said: "I'll grovel
Or he'll think I bear him malice" –
A sentiment as novel
As a castor on a chalice.

Down upon the middle
Of his legs fell Twaddle
And astonished Mr. Twiddle,
Who began to lift his noddle.
Feed upon the fiddle-
Faddle flummery, unswaddle
A new-born self-sufficiency and think himself a model.

G. J.

 

[Nemesis]

Rude:



[F., fr. L. rudis.]

1. Characterized by roughness; umpolished; raw; lacking delicacy or refinement; coarse.

Such gardening tools as art, yet rude, . . . had formed. --Milton.

2. Hence, specifically:
(a) Unformed by taste or skill; not nicely finished; not smoothed or polished; -- said especially of material things; as, rude workmanship. ``Rude was the cloth.'' --Chaucer.

Rude and unpolished stones. --Bp. Stillingfleet.

The heaven-born child All meanly wrapt in the rude manger lies. --Milton.
(b) Of untaught manners; unpolished; of low rank; uncivil; clownish; ignorant; raw; unskillful; -- said of persons, or of conduct, skill, and the like. ``Mine ancestors were rude.''

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)


Miserable:

'But as I understand the word miserable, it either has no meaning at all, or else signifies only a painful privation of something, or a state of suffering either in body or soul.'

Jean Jacques Rousseau, 1754

A Dissertation On the Origin and Foundation of The Inequality of Mankind and is it Authorised by Natural Law?

 

[Nemesis]

Harmondsworth Barn:

http://www.stopstanstedexpansion.com/documents/National_Amenity_Societies_SERAS.doc

 

[Flyfisher]

Slight digression, but I wouldn't hold your breath while waiting to stop Stansted's expansion.

Recent newsworthy events seem to have taken us from Gordon's doubling of Air Passenger tax to show how green and cuddly he is, to a budget where he actively shot down Dave's proposal for VAT on air travel and now the EU is pushing for an 'open skies' deregulation of transatlantic air travel.

Forget what the politicians might say, it's their actions that count and everything seems to be encouraging air travel, so I'd bet the second runway at Stansted is just a matter of time.

 

[Nemesis]

I suspect local residents will carry on fighting until every blade of grass becomes tarmac and every historic building is flattened. They have my utmost sympathy.

http://www.stopstanstedexpansion.com/r1_public_inquiry.html

http://www.uttlesford.gov.uk/news/pre-enquiry+meeting+into+stansted+airport+expansion.htm



Harmondsworth is not a part of that. That's in the way of another swathe of tarmac.

 

[Flyfisher]

I suspect they will as well, although the farmer who owns the land we shoot over is just waiting for the day to come.
Every cloud . . .

I wasn't sure about the harmondsworth connection, I just saw 'stopstanstedexpansion' in your link.

 

[Nemesis]

Ah - you didn't actually read it.

Hmmm.

 

[Flyfisher]

As far as my digression was concerned, there was no need.

 

[Nemesis]

As far as ancient oak barns in need of new homes however it does give some information.