newbie questions

[pippic]

Hello and firstly can I apologise if this has already been covered. We're a couple who are just about to sign our lives away on a Grade II* listed farmhouse. It needs LOADS of work, but fortunately it won't need extending, just renovating - ie UPVC windows ripped out, pebbledash removed, etc, etc.
Has anyone here undertaken a huge project like this on a listed building like this.. Can they offer any advice??? We've joined Spab, we've got the council's conservation officer coming round for the afternoon, but we're also hoping to apply for some grants to help towards some of the major work.
We've renovated old properties before but nothing listed yet, so its very exciting but also terrifying!

Thanks again and please excuse my impudence!

 

[Lime]

With any listed building it is essential to get the council's conservation officer on your side.
He/she can and will dictate what you do.
Ask for his/her opinion and recommendations rather that say what you want to do first.
Get to know them.
Ask what you can do and what they would like see done.
First meetings are often the most important so do not try to be assertive or pushy but listen and show you care.

 

[Nemesis]

Firstly - was it listed with the uPVC windows in situ? If not, were they given LBC to be installed? I appreciate that you want to remove, but if work has been carried out without consent regarding windows it could also have been carried out elsewhere, and you will, once you buy, be responsible for putting that right. As you haven't yet signed away your life, I'd suggest that all this is sorted out BEFORE you do, and possibly seek a reduction on cost to cover this. If the existing owners have done any work without consent, they have broken the law, and can be liable for enforcement action and even court action.

Secondly - while there are at times grants available, they are very hard to get, and I wouldn't bank on getting any help at all.

It may be that your local authority has a small pot of cash, but few do, and grants from EH come with all manner of restrictions and responsibilities, and the general attitude is that if you buy a private property, then you should really have been aware and budgeted for any work accordingly. As the building is II* listed, English Heritage will have to be involved with any plans for the property, and all the consents etc will take time.

I wouldn't agree with Lime that the CO can 'dictate', but certainly will have a major input into what in the end will be granted consent.

See what the CO has to say, then come and see what help we can give.

Joining SPAB was a great idea, have a look at the publications and the courses for homeowners.

PS don't talk to the CO about 'renovation' - gentle repair is what you are aiming for.

 

[Penners]

All good advice above. It's essential that the first thing you do with the CO is to convince him/her that you have the best interests of the building at heart. If you get off on the right foot, then you'll probably find that the CO will be helpful and co-operative (within the constraints of his/her duty to the building).

As regards Nemesis' timely warning about the sins committed by the previous owners, you may want to discuss this with your solicitor. If you suspect that changes have been made to the building by the vendors without LBC, then ask your solicitor to formally question the vendor's solicitor about it. If they're unable to show you consents for work that they've done, then talk to your solicitor about the possibility of getting insurance cover (premium paid for by the vendors) to indemnify you against the possibility of your having to rectify the building.

 

[Nemesis]

I don't think that indemnity insurance will be possible. Once it is known that work has been carried out without consent, and therefore it's very likely that action will be taken, an insurer won't be keen on providing cover! Carrying out work without LBC is a criminal act.

The vendor really can't say 'I have broken the law, please insure in case I am caught...'

 

[Penners]

We got insurance like that when we bought this hovel. OK, I accept that known sins can't be covered, but in our cases we got cover against suspected sins. What's more the vendors paid the premium, which is tantamount to an admission...

 

[Nemesis]

I'd still be wary of thinking all can be covered by insurance - especially if the solicitor has an
admittance. The listing desription might give the game away also, and many local authorities have photographic records now of listed buildings.

 

[Penners]

I'd still be wary of thinking all can be covered by insurance

No argument at all. But it bears discussion with the solicitor.

 

[Pford75]

I'd be very surprised if you were able to get a grant, having just bought the house. Most local authorities exclude any properties from grants in the first 5 years after purchase (on the assumption that the work required was factored into the purchase price).

 

[Penners]

And even if you managed to get a grant, do be sure to read the small print before you accept it.

We got a grant for the first house that we ever renovated, and by the time we'd finished complying with all the "special requirements" that it was tied up with, I wished we'd never embarked on it.

In fairness, though, I should add that this was some 30 years ago.

 

[Flyfisher]

We took on a G2* property a couple of years ago in need of lots of work, although thankfully only the result of neglect and not the reversal of previous inappropriate works.

As you've tackled old properties before you'll know many of the potential problems. However, as this one is listed then the above advice about talking with your CO is spot-on and really can't be emphasised enough. We had discussions with our CO before signing on the dotted line and I'd advise anyone else to do the same if possible - especially with a very real risk of non-consented works having been done by the vendor. As I understand things, it's the current owner that is responsible for such things, in the sense of rectification if not blame, so if you buy then everything is your responsibility.

Where there are known issues I would personally prefer not to rely on insurance but to deal with the vendor directly and negotiate a price reduction to cover the remedial works. It should be fairly easy to get estimates for replacing the windows with something appropriate - again you need to discuss with your CO - and then reduce your offer accordingly. The vendors won't be pleased of course but you might point out to them that such alterations to a listed property without LBC constitutes a criminal offence, so that may focus their minds somewhat.

As previously pointed out, G2* means that EH are involved in any LBC applications but in our case this didn't seem to cause any issues. I've also read that grants are more likely to be available for G2* (and G1) but in practice I wouldn't rely on any grants to make the purchase financially viable. I've also read that the available grants are small and come with conditions attached so I've not bothered to pursue them. In many respects the zero-rated VAT on approved alterations to listed properties is something of a grant anyway.

Good luck!

 

[Penners]

In many respects the zero-rated VAT on approved alterations to listed properties is something of a grant anyway.

A good point, although you need to be aware that you can't get a VAT refund on materials bought for DIY work. And repairs don't qualify for zero rating, even if a builder does them. Only alterations that have LBC, carried out by a VAT-registered builder, can attract this benefit.

 

[middi]

Try and enjoy your gradeII* restoration warts & all, you will be very pleased once finished, be always positive to tackle any problems and learn as much as possible the reasons why it is better to repair and/or restore in a reccommended manner.

Good luck

 

[pippic]

Thank you so much for your responses
Luckily the majority of the work including the UPVC (`out of character modern windows') is actually recorded in the listing. But I will definitely look at it all again as its quite vague in some areas - even though the listing is two pages long.
Thanks too for the heads up about the VAT - for some reason I had a figure of five per cent in my head for that - obviously there are different catagories.
Its going to be a fascinating project as its listed because of its `early C17 interior, remarkable for the way it was enriched in the C18.'
There's a lot of rotten mullion windows that need replacing, old floorboards to renovate and a whole derelict wing - which still has the bread oven and old copper washbowl with fire underneath intact.
We will try for a grant even though we won't hold our breath, as not just the house but all the outbuildings are listed too - think this could be a lifetime's project.

But definitely will be following your advice and making friends with the CO - will keep you posted and welcome any more tips or useful reading.

Thanks again for so much advice so quickly.

 

[Penners]

I echo what Middi said above. Enjoy your wonderful house!

 

[Nemesis]

Please please - talk about repair not renovation - your CO will be much more impressed!

If your local authority has some grant aid available, it will be detailed on its website.

Beyond that, really don't bank on EH grants - few and far between, and mainly directed at public projects, or those embarked on by charitable trusts.

http://www.ahfund.org.uk/funds.html

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server.php?search_word=grants&submit=Search&inTitles=on&terms=all&mainSearch=frontPage&titl=inTitles&show=nav.8384

Our aims
One of English Heritage’s main aims is to promote a wider appreciation of the historic environment and in most cases grants are offered on condition that a guaranteed level of public access is provided for a minimum of ten years after grant-aided work has been completed.

We expect work carried out with the support of our grants to be sympathetic to the character and importance of the building, site or landscape. We also aim to ensure that repairs are completed to a high standard and that the property in question is regularly maintained in the future in order to achieve high quality, sustainable results as well as value for money.

 

[Hatster]

Congratulations on your new house! My husband and I recently moved into our G2 C17 house and invited the conservation officer round at an early stage. We're also hoping to remove cement-based pebble dash, as well as taking up some cement floors, etc. We found that the CO was very helpful, much less fussed about things than we'd expected, and gave us a list of architects and builders with experience in working with historic buildings. (The best bit of her visit was when I explained the house had a bit of a damp problem, she looked extremely doubtful, I led her over to the damp, and she said 'wow, you really do have a damp problem!') When we subsequently contacted the architects, they were very keen to make sure that we'd already had the CO round and that she hadn't had a problem with any of it. So getting your lovely local CO round is highly recommended.

 

[DaveBrigg]

I asked almost exactly the same question on here three years ago, before buying a grade II farmhouse that sounds very similar to yours, although fortunately without the plastic windows. I spoke to the CO before buying; if you can show that you have the best interests of the building at heart, and are ready to listen to advice, you will probably be welcomed as one of the 'good guys'. We're now nearly two and a half years into a three month project, and probably over halfway there. We seem to have been remarkably lucky with grants from the council, since we had the maximun allowed towards the roof repairs, (increased slightly because of the building being 'at risk'). The only small print was a requirement that the CO be allowed to check on the work as it was being done. Not a problem at all.
Three years ago the best advice I got was from Penners, who suggested that the work would take twice as long and cost about 50% more than we expected. The time estimate was optimistic, but with most of the major work done, the comment about budget was about right. That's without splashing out on any of the fancy gadgets and marble floors seen so often on Grand Designs.
Finally, make sure you take photos. Hundreds of them. Your work will reveal lots of hidden secrets about the building which may later be covered up, so this may be the only chance to record them. They also provide comfort when you look back after a year and wonder whether you will ever make any progress.

 

[Flyfisher]

We're now nearly two and a half years into a three month project, and probably over halfway there.

What a wonderful quote.

 

[Lime]

Three years ago the best advice I got was from Penners, who suggested that the work would take twice as long and cost about 50% more than we expected. The time estimate was optimistic, but with most of the major work done, the comment about budget was about right.

Oh! How often have I heard those words, halfway through a project.