New use for old church

[vicky whitworth]

Hello, our village parish church (Victorian mostly) is now far too large (can accommodate 600) for the size of congregation and possible alternative uses are having to be considered. The villagers have all received a questionnaire asking what we thing should happen from demolition to selling it off to closing off part of the church and just using the chancel. I was wondering if anyone had experience of anything similar and had any bright ideas what it could be used for. It's gently crumbling at the moment as there is no money for much maintenance. The village already has a village hall and a school assembly hall that are using for community groups, etc, and a village shop so we can't make a community centre out of it. I can't say I think it is the most beautiful building but it has its charm. I had some half-baked ideas that we could set up a business running traditional skills courses using the church building. I can't see it being suitable for residential - for a start it's huge, has no parking, and is surrounded by a large churchyard.
What should happen with old buildings like this? Thanks, Vicky

 

[another_richard]

Give the building to those they sought to enslave, the people of the parish.

"It was for this, that men should make
Thy name a fetter on men's necks,
Poor men's made poorer for thy sake,
And women's withered out of sex? It was for this, that slaves should be, Thy word was passed to set men free?"

Swinburne

 

[Moo]

Naarch has the same problem in spades; one is tripping over redundant churches in the fine city.
We have one that was converted into artists' studios, a couple that housed successful mini-markets (mainly antiques and 'collectables') and cafes, another that is an occasional (chilly) art gallery, one is a drop-in centre for the needy, in the red-light area there's one that's conveniently placed to be a centre for the local prostitutes..... Gareth can, I'm sure, add to the list.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Naarch has the same problem in spades; one is tripping over redundant churches in the fine city.
We have one that was converted into artists' studios, a couple that housed successful mini-markets (mainly antiques and 'collectables') and cafes, another that is an occasional (chilly) art gallery, one is a drop-in centre for the needy, in the red-light area there's one that's conveniently placed to be a centre for the local prostitutes..... Gareth can, I'm sure, add to the list.

Yeah - there's Lusty Lou, Busty Brenda, Vicky the Tart, Dirty Doris,

oh, I see, you mean the churches...

There's the Arts Centre, the Museum of Church Art, St Andrew's multi-purpose Hall (converted 1549) several which aren't used for anything at all really, and one or two where this funny stuff called religion goes on...

http://www.norwich-churches.org/churches/churches.shtm

and a list here under Norwich with some good archive piccies too:
http://www.norfolkchurches.co.uk/norfolkindex.htm

 

[DaveBrigg]

Give the building to those they sought to enslave, the people of the parish.

"It was for this, that men should make
Thy name a fetter on men's necks,
Poor men's made poorer for thy sake,
And women's withered out of sex? It was for this, that slaves should be, Thy word was passed to set men free?"

Swinburne

And the gates of this Chapel were shut,
And "Thou shalt not" writ over the door;
So I turned to the Garden of Love,
That so many sweet flowers bore;

And I saw it was filled with graves,
And tombstones where flowers should be;
And Priests in black gowns were walking their rounds,
And binding with briers my joys and desires.

Blake
In central Scunthorpe the church has been turned into an arts centre, with regular hands-on sessions for the kids. (Our son made a sculpture using cardboard, glue and dog hair, and came away looking like a werewolf) There is a medieval church in York, near Jorvik, which has been converted to a 'modern art' gallery. The last time I went, there was a large stone pool in the centre, and visitors were encouraged to light floating candles and set them adrift. Both churches rely on large centres of population to provide a stream of visitors though.

 

[Michelle73]

That kind of large open space would be good as a childrens day nursery though it sounds like parking and outdoor play areas might be a problem!

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Yet stop I did: in fact I often do,
And always end much at a loss like this,
Wondering what to look for; wondering, too,
When churches will fall completely out of use
What we shall turn them into, if we shall keep
A few cathedrals chronically on show,
Their parchment, plate and pyx in locked cases,
And let the rest rent-free to rain and sheep.
...
A shape less recognisable each week,
A purpose more obscure. I wonder who
Will be the last, the very last, to seek
This place for what it was; one of the crew
That tap and jot and know what rood-lofts were?
Some ruin-bibber, randy for antique,
Or Christmas-addict, counting on a whiff
Of gown-and-bands and organ-pipes and myrrh?

Larkin

 

[JoceAndChris]

Never was a poem pulled out so fittingly to match the occasion.

Good old Larkin, little ray of sunshine.

I think churches should be be used for ritual: for celebration, for grief, for community. That's what they're for. It's a pity god, and eternity, and damnation had to come into it.

I'd advocate a new kind of humanist programme for them, personally. Just think of the interesting lectures that could take place, and the coming togethers.

 

[MattW]

Do you have an idea about the immediate maintenance costs + the ongoing running costs of the building? The future use of the building must be able to cover both of these as presumably the church commissioners will not if it ceases to be active church? In a time when many cultural & social budgets (local, central, charity etc) are being cut, you many not be able find a reliable source of grants, especially for hte ongoing costs. As such, I think you need to focus on what level of income is required which in turn will materially narrow down the potential uses.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

If the church is as conveniently located, and could be sympathetically adapted to provide the same or a better level of facilities as the village hall, and assuming the church is the better building, might it be possible to transfer the village hall function to the church, and sell off the village hall (or its site) for development to cover some of the costs of conversion?

Otherwise I fear the end result may be:, or even a quick phone call to the Diocesan Arsonist, that invaluable servant.

 

[AMc]

There are two churches over the road from me - one was converted into an 'arts centre'. It's used to stage concerts, art exhibitions and the odd craft market. We also have a regular church, school and village hall. I'm not sure how they pay the bills as usage is that frequent but it clearly manages somehow.

If the demand is there then either a day care centre for OAPs or a child care centre would seem possible?

 

[michael]

Its use, I suppose, depends to some extent on how far your village and the church is from the rest of civilisation. Are you near to any large towns or cities with substantial populations that could easily access the facilities on offer? Secondly could the church yard be adapted to provide parking? I know for example that a derelict church in the very leafy and expensive Hampstead in north London was converted into a very successful recording studio, now frequented by popular bands and orchestras but other ideas could include a lecture theatre (for use by corporate companies), an art house cinema offering something different to the usual Hollywood block busters, a theatre, a music venue specialising in classical and opera, a large restaurant or banqueting hall, a specialist wedding venue, a specialist museum or a museum relevant to your area, a dance school,(ballroom dancing now very popular) a specialist sports club e.g. fencing, indoor bowls, archery etc, a fully equipped gymnasium/health club, an architectural salvage hall (I think there is something similar in Old street London specialising in reclaimed stained glass and other salvaged church fittings), How about a venue for a regular indoor farmers market combined with other foody festivals such as cheese makers , brewers , wine makers, flower festivals etc. Another good bet is an auction house. There are no doubt hundreds of possibilities but for most of them you need the punters to make it work hence the opening question and that church yard will have to be adapted if at all possible. Failing any of these then Gareth’s proposal sounds like the best bet

 

[Cloudscape]

I think what's scuppering the building's chances:

has no parking, and is surrounded by a large churchyard.

Gravestones, if that's what we're talking about, are sometimes cleared to the edges so that flat ground could be used again. I've seen churchyards turned to lawn, but I'm not sure I have seen one turned into a car park. How sensitive is the churchyard locally? How old are the graves?

 

[Feltwell]

The "churchyard" question is always a sensitive one. I was an engineer on the construction of the Sheffield SuperTram system - on one of my sections we had to empty an old graveyard that a section of road was to go over, but in that case the church had long since gone and the newest grave was over 200 years old. We had to excavate all the remains (not that there was much) and re-inter them in a mass grave. It was done with as much sensitivity and respect as was possible.

The "last burial" date seems to have a big influence on what can be done with the land - it's clearly a lot more sensitive if living relatives are visiting.

The church in my road has had it's graveyard cleared of headstones, although all the coffins are still in their original plots. It's rather sad actually - just a plain grass field with some of the headstones round the edge, all the character has gone. It only really gets used once a year for the church fete. I believe it was the Health & Safety implications of falling gravestones that meant the stones were moved in the 80's

 

[Feltwell]

Otherwise I fear the end result may be:- Church with Dormers.JPG

Gareth, that is truly horrible. From the flintwork on the tower that looks East Anglian - probably Norfolk - where is it?

You need planning permission to add dormers, how the hell did they get that?

The roof covering is awful as well - modern concrete interlocking tiles by the look of it.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Otherwise I fear the end result may be:- Church with Dormers.JPG

Gareth, that is truly horrible. From the flintwork on the tower that looks East Anglian - probably Norfolk - where is it?

You need planning permission to add dormers, how the hell did they get that?

The roof covering is awful as well - modern concrete interlocking tiles by the look of it.

I'm ashamed to say I don't know where it is - it's a photo taken by my predecessor, I believe somewhere in the Thetford area.

 

[Feltwell]

I'm ashamed to say I don't know where it is - it's a photo taken by my predecessor, I believe somewhere in the Thetford area.

Well, that would explain why it looks horribly familiar, as I'm from erm, Feltwell...... although I haven't been back there in a long time.

I'm sure I recognise it. Although in it's pre-bastardised form.

 

[fjpdesigns]

The church in question looks rather like one very close to me, in Knettishall, near Hopton in Suffolk. Not far from Thetford. Rather a strange looking conversion.

 

[fjpdesigns]

It's on the road running south from Knettishall towards the old airfield.
Copy and paste into Google maps-
+52° 23' 5.78", +0° 53' 51.19"

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Knettishall it is. Not sure I agree with the "all done rather well" assessment
http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/knettishall.htm