My house wants its fields back

[JoceAndChris]

Some of the land around our house is up for tender. We've no experience of what to do- any advice? how much should we offer per acre? Its hilly and has been used for growing animal feed over the last few years. If we were to buy a few acres, what is the most lucrative thing to do with them? Rent out again?

There's no property on these fields, but there are public rights of way. I'd like some sheep.

 

[Tom]

Joce, is it the land sloping down from your house? Or the other way?

Sheep? What for? There's no money in sheep unless you have hundreds and they wouldn't be safe with public footpaths through the land ie people with loose dogs. I know people obviously DO have sheep in fields with footpaths through but they also get problems!!

The most lucrative thing to do with land is equestrian based. Build some stables and rent them out. However, you'll need enough land so it doesn't get poached, otherwise people will have to stable their horses night and day in the winter...and that's not good.

Either way, it'll be at least 2 years before you can use it for grazing. You'll need to plough it now, leave the frost to kill off anything growing there, seed it next year, then wait for the grass to grow and settle. Even then, it'll be very fragile until it becomes established.

You could buy it and rent it to local farmers to carry on growing wheat, corn or whatever but then...what's the point?

Jaqy

 

[JoceAndChris]

Interesting- thanks for your detailed reply. It's the land above our house. Will land appreciate much in Value in the next twenty years? Would this be a sensible or stupid thing to do- bearing in mind we'd need another mortgage for this?

A big part of wanting it is to do with the fact it used to belong to the house, but maybe one'ssentiment can go too far! It's a great shame there's no money in sheep farming, they're so pretty!

Do you think stabling and renting out to horses would pay for itself eventually?

 

[Tom]

Joce, no disrespect and I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I think this is a non-starter. Whether you want to graze it yourself or create an equestrian centre, the initial outlay to set it up would be prohibitive. Arable or grazing land is unlikely to go up THAT much pro rata and the time to recoup any money spent on stables, upkeep of land, fencing etc for horses would be many, many years.

Not only that but you need to be physically fit to do either of these things. Again, no disrespect to you, but you cannot wait for Chris to come home if you find a sheep cast (stuck on it's back), caught in fencing, struck (maggots eating it) etc. You need to be able to do all the work needed yourself immediately. And it's no good relying on others because, invariably, they're not there when you need them!!

If I were you I'd forget it. Let someone else farm it and create the beauty around you that you have now. Put all your money into your house...that's where it's needed right now.

If, after all this, you still think you want sheep, I'm bringing my handful in soon for worming, foot trimming etc. Come up and help if you like. You'll get an idea of how easy it is...NOT...to turn an unwilling 60kg sheep!!! :roll:

Jaqy

 

[skier-hughes]

Sheep are a nightmare if you don't know what you are doing and even relying on a breeder to supply you with 50 ewes is not possible, we had 49 and a ram, followed by 15 lambs, 3 still born, one died shortly after birth and two lasted a couple of days.
No money whatsoever was made from them, in fact time and energy consumed made it a lossmaker.

Having fewer the year after, just enough to fill the freezer was nice, but still hard work. I'd do the few again, the lamb tastes so good, even if it is expensive.

Maybe look at buying just an extra acre (1/4 or 1/2) bordering your land, to give you a bigger garden. Be aware though, resedential land ie garden is X times more expensive than agricultural, when we bought an extra 1/3 acre we were treated by our farmer neighbour to £6k per acre, his agent wanted it to be around £30k an acre.

Horse people can be very finicky, they want everything for nothing, then if you have a few people with a few horses you end up with all the arguements of whose horse kicked/bit/trampled on whose, who isn't cleaning/raking if you want out the rat race........ think again

 

[GeoffP]

Only my opinion and an opposite view to the others but I would buy as much as I could afford providing the price is acceptable to you. As the old saying goes – they’re not making it anymore.

I wouldn’t know how much to offer in Lincolnshire though, probably varies throughout the country but it would certainly increase the value of your property.

Do you have to have sheep or animals of any sort?

Why not plant it all with a variety of trees and in a few years you might be self sufficient for your woodburner. It’s surprising how fast they grow and possibly could add to your view. Just being able to walk the dogs in your own wood would convince me.

I only wish the acres of ground that originally belonged to my house hadn’t been sold off years ago, before I lived here.

Geoff

 

[Moo]

My instinct would be to buy it first and think about what to do with it later.
That's the only way you could guarantee that someone in the future couldn't build on it.

 

[skier-hughes]

Sorry, I'm all for buying it if you cna afford it, but don't look at it as a money making activity.

 

[Flyfisher]

There's an old adage about how to make a small fortune in agriculture . . . start with a large one.

I can certainly understand the urge to to have a bit more land around your house, but be very hard-headed about the financial aspects and don't expect it to pay for itself. We're fortunate to have a 10 acre field on the edge of a village but we can't figure out how to make any money from it; the neighbouring farmers don't want to rent it, no one (that we can find) wants it for horses, and putting our own livestock on it would require stockproof fencing first, at some considerable cost. I would even let it out rent-free for horses or similar, if someone paid for the fencing, just to have it being used. Perhaps we're not trying hard enough, but therein lies the issue - if it's too much hard work is it really worth it? Meanwhile, I mow it a couple of times each year with the tractor but always with a feeling that I should be getting some return from it instead of burning diesel just to keep it reasonably tidy.

Also, I wouldn't get too carried away with nostalgia for land that once belonged to your cottage, unless you have very deep pockets. Our house was in the middle of 220 acres in the 1930s, but I'm not about to set out on a crusade to reinstate it all.

As a long-term investment land could yield a decent return, but usually only if planning consent can be obtained. Unfortunately, we're outside the planning envelope of our village so I'm not expecting any return in my lifetime. And if a parcel of land is ripe for development and likely to get planning permission then you'll find that value already built into the price; agricultural land can be a few £1000s per acre, 'paddocks' near towns can be a few £10ks per acre and building land can be a few £100ks per acre.

As for keeping sheep, I keep considering it but am always mindful of a television programme I once saw about two old Yorkshire farming brothers who had run a cattle farm all their lives. When asked why they didn't keep sheep they answered "because they're too eager to die". I also know someone with a 4 acre smallholding in Suffolk who gave up sheep in favour of keeping Dexter cattle. These are, apparently, very hardy, can stay out all winter, calve very easily and are manageably small. He told me he'd never again consider keeping sheep.

 

[chuckey]

I would work out exactly how much the land is going to cost you including maintenance of walls/fences and weed spraying (to keep your neighbours sweet). Sooner or later the interest rates will be back to 10%, so I would pessimisticaly use this figure. Now can you still afford it? If you can think of a suitable crop or some niche animals that can provide an income, such as privet hedging? or llamas? then you could have the land pay for its self with out a massive amount of work, but you will still need enthuiasm for the "crop".
Keep away from horses and donkeys, sheep (unless niche). You could try milking goats.
All in all I would buy it, try to get planning permission for housing (one!) and sell most of it on, leaving a good size boundary portion as a garden/woodland.
Frank

 

[Tom]

Unfortunately, the land Joce is talking about is unlikely to ever getting planning permission for development.

The idea of planting trees is nice but the footpath is on the border of Joce's land now, so the 'wood' would be the other side of it. Whilst is would be nice for Joce to enjoy, unfortunately everbody else would enjoy it, too....and you can't police your own land all the time.

Also, as Joce said, they'd have to take out a mortgage to buy it which would put further strain on funds available to renovate their beautiful house

Jaqy

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Sheep may be pretty - but they have a sole aim in life; to die as unexpectedly and mysteriously as possible. They're also not low maintenance - shearing, foot trimming, dagging, drenching, lambing etc etc. We're now converts to cows - much lower maintenance, and just as pretty and tasty.

Land does not really appreciate unless you can get planning permission. However there is something very primeval about owning the land around you - I'd say go for it.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Sheep may be pretty - but they have a sole aim in life; to die as unexpectedly and mysteriously as possible. They're also not low maintenance - shearing, foot trimming, dagging, drenching, lambing etc etc. We're now converts to cows - much lower maintenance, and just as pretty and tasty.

Land does not really appreciate unless you can get planning permission. However there is something very primeval about owning the land around you - I'd say go for it.

Agree with all of this. I am down to twelve ewes from thirty three. I can't decide what to do and my farm is a real mess because of undergrazing.

BUT.............it wouldn't take long to get it back in good order if I got hundreds of sheep on over winter and I do love being surrounded by my own land.
We paid cash for the land and got a mortgage for the farm buildings and house.

 

[Tom]

Meanwhile, I mow it a couple of times each year with the tractor but always with a feeling that I should be getting some return from it instead of burning diesel just to keep it reasonably tidy.

If you're mowing 10 acres, why don't you make hay? Better than doing nothing with it. A turner and small baler wouldn't cost much. Or you could get someone local to bale it but, of course, you're relying on them baling when it's still dry because they'll want to do their own first!!

Jaqy

 

[skier-hughes]

Depends if it's nice grass or a mixture of weeds and rubbish, then nobody will want to bale it, without being paid to do it for you, then who you going to sell it to?????

 

[Pford75]

Land does not really appreciate unless you can get planning permission

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. In my previous job, I undertook some consulting work with a major UK housebuilder. The vast majority of their profits are not generated from 'construction' but from 'land bank activities'. Ie. buying land cheap and selling it for more. Now it is true that obtaining PP greatly increases the value of land, but it is also true that there is some appreciation of land value over time, regardless of PP status.

I also don't think it is possible to say that a plot will never get planning permission. There are many rural plots that it would have been unthinkable to develop some time ago, but which now have development.

It's also worth noting some of the financial incentives to owning forestry:-


http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/property/forestry-ownership-offers-inheritance-tax-dodge.aspx

Returns from forestry hit 14.4% last year as timber prices soared 15.5%, the highest figure since 1992, according to the IPD Forestry index. But it’s the generous tax breaks, including the opportunity to dodge inheritance tax, that are turning many an investor’s head towards this appealing alternative property investment. Normally, the beneficiary of your estate would pay inheritance tax on anything over £285,000 of its value, but by managing woodland commercially, the land and all the trees on it become exempt after two years of ownership

 

[Schoolmarm]

Does that apply to planting my own farm up with trees or just "proper forestry" as in those huge swathes of upright conifer trees?

 

[Flyfisher]

I agree there will always be some appreciation of land prices over time, but agricultural land values (which I believe is what Joce is looking at) will likely be related to the state of farming, which doesn't really come across as a 'boom industry' (although recent grain prices have been very good). I'm aware that house builders use 'land banking' but I've always assumed this was speculative purchasing based on reasonable expectations of obtaining planning consent rather than trading purely agricultural land.

I agree with 'never say never' in terms of obtaining planning consent but it can be a long-term process, expecially if the land is currently designated as agricultural and is not within any targeted evelopment areas as defined in county structure plans. Structure plans are, of course, regularly updated when land owners can lobby, propose and offer land for building purposes, but it's not a fast process and location can be crucial to success.

Forestry tax laws can, indeed, be valuable, but I think this is more in the sense of helping to preserve existing wealth rather than creating it anew.

Professional property and land speculation is one thing but I think it's a risky thing for homeowners; well, too risky for me anyway. Buy as much land as you can afford, by all means, but only for its personal amenity value rather than relying on it increasing in value.

 

[Flyfisher]

If you're mowing 10 acres, why don't you make hay? Better than doing nothing with it.

Yes, I've thought about this, usually when trundling around mowing the field, which takes a considerable time with just a 5-foot topper - but is glorious in the right weather.

The field has been fallow for about the last 20 years, so very overgrown, but it was quite surprising (to me, anyway) how quickly good-looking grass came through after the first couple of cuts. But I have no real idea of its true quality for hay purposes, although it would definitely be 'organic' as there have been no chemicals applied for at least 20 years and probably many more.

You're certainly right about hay turners and old balers being reasonably cheap, although I understand old balers can be rather temperamental, especially the knotting mechanism. But without a definite route to market (or even being able to give it away) I may just be converting grass to haystacks.

I've even thought about a biomass boiler and how I might be able to link that into a heating system for the house . . . . but by then I've usually finished mowing the field and have to get back to the more mundane tasks of repairing the roof and other stuff. One day, perhaps.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Small bale hay this year that smells horrid is 4.50 a bale :shock:


I have got 500 bales in years gone by off my 5 acre hay meadow. Wishing I had got some this year.