Mortgage offer recieved - advice needed!

[matthew]

Hi,

Returned home from work this evening to find a nice fat envelope from Cheltenham and Gloucester. Brilliant I thought.

The building is a 1700 Grade II listed building.

I opened it up to find the mortgage offer - we're borrowing less than 50% of the valuation. But my delight soon turned to dismay when I read the conditions.

"The valuer has specified that certain work is required to the property and it will be a condition of the loan that this work is carried out before we will issue the Loan. We are expecting XXX & XXX to carry out the work as detailed in their report, so please contact them now to make the necessary arrangements. When the work is completed, please confirm this by sending the contractors invoice to your solicitor"

This gives us a number of major headaches.

1) The owners will not let us carry out the work before we own the building. Don't blame them really.
2) XXX & XXX claim that the building requires a damp course - but the conservation officer will not grant permission for one to be installed. I don't think one is required either.
3) XXX & XXX also claim the building is riddled with deathwatch beetle - we can only find 1 small area that is affect. In order to treat the house as per their report we'd need to strip all the beams back using a suitable poultice. I calculate that this would take about 2 weeks solid work just to prepare the beams.

Some of the work on the report does need doing - there are some rotten beams in the cellar and a beam in the roof needs replacing. Fair enough. But these can all be fixed when we move in. The report also states that a sump pump is needed in the cellar - the cellar has never had more then 1/2" of water in it.

It just seems that these wood preservation companies have a license to print money by specifying items on their reports safe in the knowledge that the lenders will back them.

Can anyone offer any advice as how best to tackle this problem - I've just spoken to the C&G, but have been advised to call back tomorrow.

I just cannot see how anyone can comply with such terms - how can we carry out work on a building we do not own, especially when the Conservation officer will not give us permission to do it!

Has anyone been in a similar position? Any advice?

Many thanks for reading this?


Matthew

 

[Nemesis]

Contact another firm - one which appreciates the probs of historic buildings!

DPC? Ye gods!!!

Was this a free survey???

 

[Penners]

As Nemesis suggests, in your shoes I would be inviting mortgage quotes from other companies.

However, I would also pursue the matter with C & G to see if you can get them to see sense. I would prepare a written report for them, explaining clearly your reasons for objecting to each of the undesirable recommendations, and citing your CO's support for your views where appropriate.

Ask them to discuss your views with whoever they use as a consultant on period buildings.

 

[Nemesis]

It may also be worth contacting the SPAB.

http://www.spab.org.uk


I am sure that a firm used to dealing with damp and insects in historic buildings wouldn't be recommending such treatment.

As the sum borrowed is obviously far less than the worth of the house (even is such an unmodernised state... ;-) ) then I'd be asking why the valuer considers these works are required, which clearly, in the case of a DPC (of what sort I wonder?) will be positively damaging!

The sump pump thingy maybe worth considering though.

 

[Gervase]

Aye, I'd ask to meet with the C&G's period property advisor who signed off such a course of action. :lol:
Seriously, though, the advice to contact SPAB is excellent - they are an immense help in such situations. 'Ancient' doesn't just mean castles in SPAB's eyes; it means any building that needs protecting from the hands of philistines, and yours sounds an ideal candidate. Good luck.

 

[matthew]

Contact another firm - one which appreciates the probs of historic buildings!

DPC? Ye gods!!!

Was this a free survey???

Was a free survey, using a firm recommended by the C&G.

I have Ridout Associates lined up for another quote, but they would like to drill small sample holes around the house for analysls. I'd planned to invite them in (2 surveyors for 5hrs each to do a thorough job)when we owned the property to give some real advice how to solve the problems.

They state they've only suggested a damp course twice in the last 20 yrs.

The current owners will not agree to the survey at the moment due to the "damage" it'll do to the walls!

 

[matthew]

As Nemesis suggests, in your shoes I would be inviting mortgage quotes from other companies.

I'd love too - but the redemption penalties on the remainder of the Mortgage would cost me about £7k! I think we'd be pushing it with our buyer also - they're already getting a bit hacked off with all the delays.

However, I would also pursue the matter with C & G to see if you can get them to see sense. I would prepare a written report for them, explaining clearly your reasons for objecting to each of the undesirable recommendations, and citing your CO's support for your views where appropriate.

I like the idea of producing a written report - cheers for that. I'll see how I get on in the morning

Ask them to discuss your views with whoever they use as a consultant on period buildings.

Will do.


Cheers for the suggestions.

 

[matthew]

It may also be worth contacting the SPAB.

Thanks - will look into that in the morning

I am sure that a firm used to dealing with damp and insects in historic buildings wouldn't be recommending such treatment.

You'd hope so - but not the case. They are a large company with a good reputation - so I thought.

As the sum borrowed is obviously far less than the worth of the house (even is such an unmodernised state... ;-) ) then I'd be asking why the valuer considers these works are required, which clearly, in the case of a DPC (of what sort I wonder?) will be positively damaging!

That's what I don't understand. We've a structural report saying it won't fall down, and the C&G valuation values it higher that we're paying for it - and we're borrowing less than 50% of that, so the risk is quite low. We're planning on spending about £30k to make it a bit more homely and then another £150k to convert the outbuildings into a 3 bedroomed house for my parents. We expect the site to be worth 4 times the mortgage amount within 3 years.

The sump pump thingy maybe worth considering though.

Agreed - the surveyor was talking about them as we went round the property and said we could either put one in ourselves or get one installed. I just asked him for a price to have one installed. Now the C&G say we've got to have it! Glad I didn't ask him for a price to do any other work!

Cheers

Matthew

 

[Nemesis]

I reckon you have a jobsworth at the C and G who hasn't a clue... I'd certainly call and ask what is going on.

Go on - give us a clue re the firm who recommended a DPC... a free survey always costs more in the end, doesn't it?

And maybe it's worth pointing out that Ridouts are very sceptical about the need for a DPC! And I reckon Ridout Assoc know what they are about.


What sort of construction is the building?

 

[NT]

A mention of the fact that you are rather disturbed by the fact that their mortgage offer requires you to commit a criminal act before they will lend should get their attention.

NT

 

[matthew]

I reckon you have a jobsworth at the C and G who hasn't a clue... I'd certainly call and ask what is going on.

I hope so. Can't say I'm impressed with the C&G - their surveyor stated that the building had central heating (I wish it did), a garage (I can't find it) and only one toilet! They also "lost" copies of the surveys etc. Not bad when the valucation survey cost me over £600 to the C&G!

Go on - give us a clue re the firm who recommended a DPC... a free survey always costs more in the end, doesn't it?

XXXXX is one of the largest, if not the largest, remedial treatment company in the West Midlands. With a history dating back to 1956, XXXXXX also has arguably the best known and most highly regarded name in the industry in the West Midlands.

Does that give you a clue?

And maybe it's worth pointing out that Ridouts are very sceptical about the need for a DPC! And I reckon Ridout Assoc know what they are about.

What sort of construction is the building?

Ridouts were recommended by our local CO, and speaking to builders etc they seem to be the people for the job.

The building is a three storey construction with 225mm solid walls and a tiled roof.

 

[matthew]

A mention of the fact that you are rather disturbed by the fact that their mortgage offer requires you to commit a criminal act before they will lend should get their attention.

NT

This made me smile. Hope it doesn't come to that.

Cheers for cheering us up!

 

[Nemesis]

It's true though - the requirement to install a DPC without LBC would be a criminal act! It's very unlikely you would get LBC for it, and I suspect that the SPAB would object too... it would require a great loss of historic fabric.

I wonder if your survey has got mixed up with someone else's?

Ridouts - Matt Green of Ridouts posts here. Excellent firm with a high reputation.

Solid walls - stone?

Remedial treatments - that's the trouble, these firms are in the business to flog 'treatments', not to solve the problems - or even correctly diagnose them.

I would also be interested to know if the surveyor has conservation expertise. If not, then maybe the C and G could find you one who has.

 

[Nemesis]

http://www.ruddersandpaynes.co.uk/


'Chemical injection damp coursing is the most successful, convenient and cost effective way of installing a damp-proof course where an existing has broken down or none exists. In simple terms, the result of this operation is the formation of a water repellent, silicone based layer through the wall. This layer will chemically bond to the masonry and cannot leach out, thus providing a long-term barrier against rising damp.'




I'd run a mile...


and from the website of

http://www.ridoutassociates.co.uk/


'Our philosophy is to avoid the expensive damage caused by unnecessary or incautious remedial treatments, and thus to reduce both the loss of historic materials and the quantities of hazardous chemicals introduced into the environment.

Established in 1987 by Dr Brian Ridout we have have worked on many outstanding buildings both in the UK and abroad. We have been involved at a number of Royal palaces, urban regeneration of large industrial buildings in Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool as well as the Golden Temple of Amritsar, India and heritage buildings in Bahrain, Vietnam, Greece, Turkey and Morocco.

Our conservation approach to timber decay has lead to us being approved by the Getty Conservation Institute, UNESCO, English Heritage, The National Trust, NHBC and Zurich Financial Services. We are also consultants for numerous small privately owned vernacular buildings.'

 

[matthew]

I wonder if your survey has got mixed up with someone else's?

Don't think so, I've seen them. Most of the details look right

Solid walls - stone?

No - brick

Remedial treatments - that's the trouble, these firms are in the business to flog 'treatments', not to solve the problems - or even correctly diahgnose them.

Can anyone reccomend a firm who would offer a suitable second opinion?

I would also be interested to know if the surveyor has conservation expertise. If not, then maybe the C and G could find you one who has.

I'll ask the question.

 

[Nemesis]

I've added to my previous post.

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/mortgage/mortgage.htm


'GUIDANCE TO PURCHASERS
Choose your mortgage institution carefully: first check that the lending institution offers mortgages on the particular type of property.
If the lending institution proposes to appoint the valuer, ask for assurance that the valuer will be a specialist who is qualified to advise on historic buildings. If assurance cannot be provided, ask whether the institution would accept a valuation by an independent professional of your own choice.
Check whether the mortgage is tied to a specific insurance policy, or whether an insurance valuation by an independent professional would be acceptable.
Do not rely on a mortgage valuation alone. Without a more detailed building survey it is not possible to fully understand the nature of the building you propose to buy, its existing defects, and the type of defects and problems that could arise in future.
Make sure that the person carrying out the full survey is suitably qualified. He or she should have undertaken specialist training in conservation (such as one of the post-graduate courses), or should otherwise be able to demonstrate current, up-to-date experience in the survey and specification of repair and conservation of listed buildings. Any alteration or repair requirements indicated by a specialist are also more likely to be accepted by conservation officers.
Surveyors should have a sound working knowledge of the Red Book in order that any advice and recommendations can be set in the context of its guidance. Advice given in this way will be given more weight when being considered by the lending institution.
Do not appoint companies such as damp-proofing and timber-treatment contractors to carry out 'free' surveys as they will have a vested interest in finding problems.'





Read Stephen's article, and ask if the surveyor sent has the expertise required to assess the supposed problems without recourse to a Man with a White Van and a damp meter.

http://www.expertsearch.co.uk/cgi-bin/find_expert?1340

SPAB will be able to point you in the right direction...

 

[NT]

I would also be interested to know if the surveyor has conservation expertise. If not, then maybe the C and G could find you one who has.

I'll ask the question.

No professional is going to do a job then tell you they weren't competent to do it - even when such is evident. So that wont help any.


NT

 

[Nemesis]

I disagree - ask if the surveyor has any further qualifications re historic buildings.

Some do...

 

[andrew gayton]

get your c.o to contact me and i will send him a copy of the letter i send to morgage companies to lift retentions etc - never fails.

 

[Nemesis]

But isn't it disgraceful - it's now routine that a house is surveyed/valued for a mortgage, the recommendation is that 'further' surveying is required by a 'specialist' (read 'company which flogs remedial treatments'), the mortgage company recommends a firm which will give a 'free' survey, that survey finds all manner of things which need extensive and expensive and damaging works, the mortgage company then insists that the work is carried out...

Certainly a licence to print money, with the 'remedial treatment' companies laughing all the way to the bank.