more timber framing questions.

[robgil]

i spent the past few nights sketching out the timber frame in the house to see whats missing and how it is all put together , sketching it made it easier to connect each room and each floor.
on the front of the house a lot of studs are missing and are hanging from a large horizontal beam on the upper floor that is supported by king studs either end. this beam then supports the rafters. the studs were cut out to put in large windows and a front door. there seems to be a timber lintel above the windows and a lot of crude repair work to a king stud.
anyhow , the joists have been put in by way of pegging a triangle shaped timber to the studs and the upper floor rests on this. this timber has been removed altogether and metal or aluminium 'L' shaped brackets have been screwed to the lintel and are now supporting the joists. also , the joists at the other side of the room (there is a spine beam in-between) seem to be floating as this triangle shaped beam has rotted and shifted. the joists seem to be held up by a modern stud partition wall that i may want to remove. so , i need to put a new triangle timber in the support the joists on this side.

my question is this , what do you call that piece of timber that supports the joists? and if the studs are in good shape is it just a case of drilling holes in the right places and using oak pegs to fix it to the studs?

or should i be looking to a modern alternative to do the job instead of the piece of timber?

 

[middi]

That is a "joist supporting ledge" --- "face pegged" onto the vertical studs. It is a good historical example as to how some floor joists were held up without any nails. Usually this type of support is more commonly found where an internal floor was an "afterthought" as the building was originally used without a floor.

 

[robgil]

cheers midi , it does indeed look like an after thought , i was for some reason expecting a wall plate above the studs but was surprised to find they go all the way up to the rafters.
are these joist supporting ledges difficult to replace? for example would i be better to perhaps use stainless bolts instead of oak pegs? or just replace like for like?

 

[middi]

Some cottages were built "two thirds" height ( possibly due to the length of timbers availabale combined with the ease of build) meaning that the floor was inserted at two thirds height from the floor and the upper third went straight under a rafter supporting beam.
This was relatively easy to build, if a floor was required a ledge would have been " face pegged" at a suitable distance from the floor.

As the average height of workman of 2/400 years ago was just over 5 feet something... hence low ceilings ad small doors.

If you have to replace the ledge make sure it is Oak, countersink a 30/32 mm dia. about 25mm deep cavity ,use M12 stainless bolts and washers and bolt ( or screw ) the ledge to the studs. Hand make "fake" pegs and tap them in the recess cavity. It will look perfect.
Note... The bolts need retigtening for the first couple of years, the "dummy"pegs have to be removed to achieve this.

 

[robgil]

very interesting , it amazes me of how simply these houses were constructed when you look below the surface , and they are still standing nearly 500 or so years later.

 

[robgil]

If you have to replace the ledge make sure it is Oak, countersink a 30/32 mm dia. about 25mm deep cavity ,use M12 stainless bolts and washers and bolt ( or screw ) the ledge to the studs. Hand make "fake" pegs and tap them in the recess cavity. It will look perfect.
Note... The bolts need retigtening for the first couple of years, the "dummy"pegs have to be removed to achieve this.

thank you middi.
i take it seasoned oak is best?

 

[middi]

For this application the more seasoned the oak the better, Ideally kiln dried european /english oak from joinery firms. If not, well seasoned/air dried is OK.

 

[robgil]

lovely , thank you middi.

 

[biffvernon]

Fascinating. If you didn't want to use steel but went for the original oak pegs, I suppose one would have to be careful about their strength.. What would you do for a purist client, Middi?

 

[Stephen]

Many such ledges I see with original fixings have hand cut nails rather than pegs. I believe pegs are generally used to hold joints together rather than fix one piece of timber to another. I would prefer to use nails or bolts (perhaps with a cover over the latter) than pegs if the ledge supports loads.

Stephen

 

[Tom]

Fascinating. If you didn't want to use steel but went for the original oak pegs, I suppose one would have to be careful about their strength.. What would you do for a purist client, Middi?

This is an interesting question. I would find it impossible to use stainless steel and would have to go down the purist route.

 

[robgil]

now that you mention it a lot of the ledges in my house do have old iron nails in there as well as the oak pegs. perhaps the oak peg takes the vertical load and the nails fix it horizontally?

 

[biffvernon]

Many such ledges I see with original fixings have hand cut nails rather than pegs. I believe pegs are generally used to hold joints together rather than fix one piece of timber to another. I would prefer to use nails or bolts (perhaps with a cover over the latter) than pegs if the ledge supports loads.
Stephen

That sounds sensible.

 

[middi]

For the purist.

About 15 years ago I had to repair such ledges in an "old farmers cottage" where the customer was a " stickler" for authenticity. one ledge was replaced and new pegs fitted, the other ledge's pegs were removed and re-pegged.

I just sat down on a stool, hand made new pegs out of seasoned oak heart wood and rammed them in the appropriate holes, the pegs were approximate 0ne and a quarter inch in diameter ( as existing). The original pegs ,I estimated, had been there 250/300 years.

I am being reminded regularly by that customer how well the ledges and pegs are doing.

( what do we know ? ).

 

[robgil]

are the joists fixed to these ledges in any way , or do they just lay ontop?

 

[middi]

The observation made by myself whilst working on,or,when repairing these "floor ledges" arrangements was that invariably the floor joists were never pegged or nailed to the ledge( free floating) and ,on ocasions, the pegs were drilled at a few degrees downward angle to the studs. These builders had more common sense that sometime they are being given credit for, after all if the side walls do distorts outwards and the joist were fixed to the ledge the chances are that the pegs could pull out slightly and therefore weakened.

The idea of putting bolts ( not necessarely nails) when repairing is that the joists could then safely be fixed to the ledge without danger of the stud moving away from the ledge in case of movement. Everything would be "stiffened"

Stiffening an oak building is never a very good thing to do because as the building moves the weakest point will come apart, breakes or distorts anyway.

This is why repairing like for like is more favourable for the building wellfare. Discretion and understanding has to be used if modern materials are to be used.

 

[biffvernon]

Thanks Middi. I guess it would take a fair sized elephant in a room before one and a quarter inch oak pegs broke.

You can't whittle a stainless steel bolt whilst sitting on a stool. You need an iron ore mine and a coal mine and a steel works and a global shipping company and the release of carbon dioxide and lord knows what else.

The building techniques in your description are just so much more sustainable.

 

[Jon Maine]

Thanks Middi. I guess it would take a fair sized elephant in a room before one and a quarter inch oak pegs broke.

You can't whittle a stainless steel bolt whilst sitting on a stool. You need an iron ore mine and a coal mine and a steel works and a global shipping company and the release of carbon dioxide and lord knows what else.

The building techniques in your description are just so much more sustainable.

Biff steady on at that rate he will get his head stuck in his pizza oven...................... :shock:

 

[middi]

The problem is Biff, that the human race gets extremely bored with simplicity or with something that works with little effort, there is always some B**^#R that tries to convince us that there is a better and easier way to do it.. ( cue salespeople !!! ....and commission.....and corruption....and dishonesty. I blame them for global warming. Come back HITLER and pick on the salespeople instead :wink: )

 

[middi]

I said the Penners NOT the Jon's of this site, Jon. :wink: