Monbiot and the AGA man

[ljn]

The Aga saga: George Monbiot v William McGrath
When Guardian commentator George Monbiot took Aga to task over its environmental impact, its chief executive William McGrath accused him of a 'class war attack'. Now, as sales of the cookers continue to fall, the two men meet. Can they settle their differences?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2009/mar/20/william-mcgrath-aga-foodservice

 

[Lime]

An aga is an inefficient device because it consumes energy all the time.
i don't think anything is going to alter that.
Making an aga so that it could be switched off and on like an ordinary cooker will make it an ordinary cooker.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've always thought the main difference between and Aga and Rayburn was that the Aga is very well insulated and therefore loses little heat externally whereas the Rayburn was not insulated and thus loses more heat to the room, which is also why (in my limited experience) Rayburns tend to have on/off controls and the Aga doesn't - because although 'always on' it will only draw energy when needed. A bit like a well-insulated hot water tank with an immersion heater. Besides, any heat lost from an Aga/Rayburn is not usually wasted as it contributes to heating the home.

Having said that, we got rid of our old Rayburn last year because it the most inefficient heating device I've ever known. Not in terms of the actual heating (which was very good) but in terms of the amount of oil consumed (which was very high). That might have been because it was an old solid fuel model that had been converted to oil but, whatever the reason, 1000 litres every 5-6 weeks was too much for me.

 

[Penners]

An aga is an inefficient device because it consumes energy all the time.

Lime - I'm no fan of Agas, but I think your comment should be qualified with the words "solid fuel". Modern oil and gas-fired Agas can be set to consume energy however and whenever you wish, with a simple timing device.

 

[DaveBrigg]

The first criticism Monbiot made of Agas was that they are built to last forever. Therefore, however effecient they were when made, after years of development and progress in cooker design, their owners will be 'lumbered' with something which still works but is far less efficient than the modern equivalent.

A bit like my house really.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

The 3 oven electric Aga, produced 2003 is very cost effective to run and Aga have now brought out another version to operate from night storage heat source.They are also working on producing a biofuel version.

On our recent move and due to budget restrictions I decided to go for an Aga 6/4 gas/electric range cooker this time and hate it, :evil: it takes ages to heat the ovens, they are very sensitive to air movement so are not constantly correct during cooking, I cannot cook so much at the same time because the ovens are very narrow and shallow, making cooking a meal very labour intensive--- give me a heat store any time, it's really just the initial outlay thats OTT, but it is for a life time.. Another issue is that it is very cold in the kitchen -- the surfaces do not dry off and the cooking pans take ages to warm up on the gas rings so I am going to have to install an underplinth kick heater, there being no wall space to add a radiator to the gas heating system.

Annoyingly I recently found some well priced second hand / reconditioned ones. grrrrrrr

All in all I disagree with the arguments against Aga, the same could be said of other heatstore appliances.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

The first criticism Monbiot made of Agas was that they are built to last forever.

Sounds a good thing to me - we usually forget the embodied energy in things; the energy used to construct, transport and install things. It can take a long time to net off the efficiency gains of newer omdels against the embodied eneregy cost. Bit like old cars I suppose.

 

[Lime]

On our recent move and due to budget restrictions I decided to go for an Aga 6/4 gas/electric range cooker this time and hate it, :evil: it takes ages to heat the ovens, they are very sensitive to air movement so are not constantly correct during cooking, I cannot cook so much at the same time because the ovens are very narrow and shallow, making cooking a meal very labour intensive--- give me a heat store any time, it's really just the initial outlay thats OTT, but it is for a life time.. Another issue is that it is very cold in the kitchen -- the surfaces do not dry off and the cooking pans take ages to warm up on the gas rings so I am going to have to install an underplinth kick heater, there being no wall space to add a radiator to the gas heating system.

and

Lime wrote:
An aga is an inefficient device because it consumes energy all the time.

Lime - I'm no fan of Agas, but I think your comment should be qualified with the words "solid fuel". Modern oil and gas-fired Agas can be set to consume energy however and whenever you wish, with a simple timing device.

I think I need to qualify my remarks in so far that I was referring to Agas that have a heat store.
Instant heating Agas are not proper Agas in my view as jocelyn plummer so clearly points out.

On a cool or cold day Agas and Rayburns can be the heart of the house but in a hot summer can be the worst experience to live with.
I have very strong memories of a childhood friend who's parents had a Rayburn to cook with.
Visiting the family in summer time consisted of knocking on the door, walking past other members of the family flaked out in the house, through the kitchen where you could cook an egg on the floor, into the conservatory that was at least 20 degrees F warmer than the kitchen and out into the garden to sit down.
Going back into the house was an arduous experience where wearing a topee would not have been a strange expectation.

 

[Flyfisher]

On a cool or cold day Agas and Rayburns can be the heart of the house but in a hot summer can be the worst experience to live with.

Yes, which is quite probably why many Aga/Rayburn owners also buy conventional cookers as well for summer use - something else Monbiot was moaning about. That was certainly my parent's solution and the almost ceremonial re-lighting of the Rayburn sometime in the autumn marked the onset of winter weather. Likewise, switching it off marked the onset of spring.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Lived with AGAs in 4 different houses growing up after moving into a derelict lodge house and firing up the 1940s AGA "just until we got a proper cooker in place, and my parents have put one into each house they have lived in since too. They have never had anotehr cooker since firing up the first one.

The is simply no comparison for cooking, heating or being the heart of the home. There is no parallel as a kid to coming in from the snow and lying on the floor with feet defrosting on the outside of the oven doors. I remember getting my shoudlers burnt on the inside of the oven door, because mum used to dry our hair inside the oven. And as for Christmas - we used to cook easily for 15 (30lb turkey) in a four oven model.

With regards being too hot in the summer - don't ever recall this being a problem. Most of them were solid fuel, and I just seem to remember the kitchen being warm and homely.

 

[Feltwell]

so I am going to have to install an underplinth kick heater, there being no wall space to add a radiator to the gas heating system.

Jocelyn - not sure if you're aware - most plinth heaters are electric fan heaters, and so cost a small fortune to run. But you can get ones that plumb into your central heating just like an ordinary radiator - so the only electricty usage is to turn the fan, not actually generate the heat.

I fitted one in my last house as I had no room for a radiator in the kitchen - it worked a treat.

Apologies if this is what you're planning to do already!

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Well said Family Wiggs, my thoughts entirely.

On the subject of things lasting 'too long' and not keeping up with technology/being politically correct/not being carbon efficient etc etc -- we could apply that to cars and period properties. What is wrong with things being 'made to last'? Maybe consumerism is out of control ,one thing for sure you won't find many agas on the landfill site but you do see masses of cars mounting up, and in car auctions, and the bits of period properties you find in landfill, are the remains of misguided attempts to 'move with the times' i.e UPVC windows and doors.

Bring back quality (perferably British) built, long lasting products --- one off carbon foot prints, and last a life time.

Feltwell, THANK YOU -- you've solved my problem. I was waiting for my Kitchen fitter to come back from holiday to ask him that exact question.

 

[CHRIS]

With regards being too hot in the summer - don't ever recall this being a problem. Most of them were solid fuel, and I just seem to remember the kitchen being warm and homely.

Is that because you live in Wales!!!!!!

Sorry could not help that

 

[FamilyWiggs]

But grew up in Hampshire, Chris.

 

[Feltwell]

Feltwell, THANK YOU -- you've solved my problem. I was waiting for my Kitchen fitter to come back from holiday to ask him that exact question.

No problem - it was a Smiths Spacesaver that I fitted:-

http://www.smiths-environmental-heating-products.co.uk/main.html

I only used it for 12 months before we moved, but it worked very well. Myson make one as well - search on "Hydronic plinth heater". I believe you can also get combined versions that heat using an electric element or your central heating system.

 

[CHRIS]

But grew up in Hampshire, Chris.

Ah so did I for a while in Alton.

My family are all in Wales near Tregaron.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Small world. I grew up in Bentworth about 6 miles from Alton, which is where I went to school.

 

[stefan]

There was an AGA in the house we last bought. I'd never had one before and didn't think I'd like it but it didn't take long for us to grow to love it. It really is the heart of the home and not at all uncomfortably hot in the summer.

The running costs/environmental costs do bother me a bit. We did convert it to gas as the oil had run out and we needed a new tank and didn't like the idea of it running out periodically or the wildly fluctuating oil prices. I have found that by turning the aga down from 4 to 1 after I've made my last coffee of the day and then switching it back up in the morning I can save 1/5 of the running costs. It takes less than half an hour for the hob to get warm enough to boil a kettle or make toast - the oven obviously takes longer. We don't use it for heating anymore but we try to use it for as many things in the kitchen as possible - we don't have an electric kettle or toaster.

Perhaps one day I'll be able to convert it to run on a hydrogen fuel cell.

 

[Penners]

But grew up in Hampshire, Chris.

Ah so did I for a while in Alton.

You only grew up for a while?

 

[countrycott]

tee hee :lol:

But then some do only grow up for a while before they revert back to childhood...

Stefan, I thought Aga's didn't do heating?
so I'm curious to know now, is your Aga in fact a Rayburn? or is it a fancy new fangled one you inherited that does do heating?