Making a grassy orchard

[JoceAndChris]

I do hope so, though my experience at our previous house in a very wooded setting was that the grass struggled badly and our lawn became pretty much mainly moss, which could suggest that water alone was not a problem. I would normally put it down to our general neglect of all things in the garden but we were surrounded by fastidious neighbours who seemed to have the same problem. One neighbour even went to the trouble of re-turfing their entire garden and we watched it gradually revert to moss over the following five years or so. Still, it looked green enough - for us anyway.

That was on a gravelly/clayish soil though so hopefully you'll fare better.

The lawns around the house are really fine, and back up the theory of mow weeds long enough and they turn to grass.

I have helpers, at the moment, with the mowing, though the cat isn't keen on them.

Where there's ground elder though, mowing hasn't helped so I sympathise with Mr P. The only thing that's helped there is drastic digging out, but it still comes back. Still, it doesnt look as terrifying as JKW!

Your garden looks very similar to mine - including the hens! The hens arrived two weeks ago. We have two bluebells, a favarelle, bevans nera and a light sussex. The banties are arriving in April. We have really missed our hens which we left with our old house (new owners very happy though).

We have just had our orchard delivered and will be planting this weekend. We have 18 trees in total; a mix of apples, pears, gages, plums, an apricot and a mulberry. I used a fruit nursery based in Norfolk and they have been great. They put together an orchard plan for us based on our requirements and the aspect/location/ soil type of the area we wish to grow our orchard in. We supplied them with pictures of the area too.

They have supplied trees to grow to the size of the trees in the old orchard in the paddock. MM106 for apples (15ft) and quince A for the pears (12ft). I do not have any connection with the nursery, other than to have been a happy customer. Can I mention that they are Reads Nursery? They have a really good selection and specialise in Norfolk varieties, but don't mind grockles like me!

We do have grass as the soil is always moist, although we have large trees in the vicinity, as there is a brook running at the bottom of our garden. I know that you can get grass seed mixed to your individual requirements ie a tough mix that is drought/ or shade tolerant? I would google grass seed suppliers.

As for Aldi trees I cannot see why they shouldn't be ok? Perhaps they are varieties that are available in large quantities for commercial growers so can be sold cheaply? This would mean that they should be pretty tough and disease resistant too.

Raf

Just seen this post - so sorry. I wish you very happy hen keeping, they sound lovely. I'm keeping mine out of the main garden at present as I think they'll destroy it! If you'd like any lemon millefleur sabelpoot chicks or Blue Orps (LF) let me know and I'll hatch you some.

Havn't progressed all that much with my orchard - still digging!

 

[worms]

I seem to remember that the GQT quote was abou Japanese Knot Weed.

I am only an occasional listener to GQT but have heard the "move" advice quite often, in answer to a range of intractable problems. I'm sure I also heard one of the panelists suggest that they were starting the ground elder appreciation society, presumably as a last refuge for those who had tried everything else and wanted to convince their neighbours that they actually liked the stuff.

Rabbits love ground elder! So perhaps Joce's garden helpers are doing a better job than might be suspected!

 

[c r]

I would say chicken poo and wood shavings/sawdust are a good combination for composting together, as chicken poo is particularly high in nitrogen. It will certainly speed up the breakdown process of the wood and leaves.


Am sure you're aware- but leaf mould is great for so many things, as a mulch, soil improver, and seed sowing if its really broken down.

also sorry if stating obvious, but one big big heap of leaves/chicken doo/wood chippings etc etc will also speed up the process, but perhaps may not be so practical in your situation.

Wood ash from the fire could be added as well to the mix, or just put it staright on the soil around the tree, and certainly mix a load in with the soil when planting the trees to begin with. Good for roots and fruits! & flowers.

Ive had good results from the shade tolerant grass seed mixes, but they advise its not the best option for hard wearing traffic- so chickens might come under this bracket...? Adding lime to the soil has helped in my situation for reducing moss growth in the grass.

Flyfisher- Grafting an old variety of apple on to a new rootstock well worth considering if you have nice old apple varieties nearby, and of course gives option of choosing trees suitable for different locations/purposes. Its extremely satisfying when the graft 'takes'!

I've found most online nurseries don't sell small quantities of rootstocks, but this place does http://www.blackmoor.co.uk/index.php?cPath=320 . Best to order soon though as they don't despatch them from roughly the end of March(ish) 'til the autumn. & I notice as its late winter now they've already 'sold out' of some of the stocks for this season, such as the M27 'dwarfing' one.

 

[LadyArowana]

I do my best with the humane solution

I know that I sound like a caveman, but I can't be doing with "humane" solutions to pest problems.

If you catch a pest (be it cockroach, mouse or whatever) humanely, as I understand it the next thing you do is to transport the beast somewhere else and release it.

So then it's somebody else's problem. :roll:

No you don't sound like a caveman at all, I think most people would probably agree with you! The pests we get ( the big roaches and little gekos ) are really only pests because they have come inside. They don't even really want to be inside because the aircon reduces the temp and humidity and they expire eventually. The roaches can get cosy if you leave food available, but a scrupulous policy of eviction and food non - availability is the best plan.

 

[Flyfisher]

Flyfisher- Grafting an old variety of apple on to a new rootstock well worth considering if you have nice old apple varieties nearby, and of course gives option of choosing trees suitable for different locations/purposes. Its extremely satisfying when the graft 'takes'!

That sounds rather technical to my feeble gardening mind, though I could perhaps be tempted to learn a new skill. But my plan for this year is to just wait and see if the now-propped-up tree survives and produces any fruit this year, which I'll then try to get positively identified. If it really does turn out to be a bit of a rarity then I'd quite like the idea of propagating it. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[JoceAndChris]

C r - your advice on the compost was much appreciated. I think I might begin an enormous heap at the end of the spinney in that case. I suppose the idea is to mix the ingredients as much as possible. We seem to have infinite woody strings of ground ivy that I'm pulling up ( an hour a day of that!!) so the mixture will be ivy, chicken poo on newspaper ( they sleep in a heap on The Telegraph), wood shavings with small amounts of poo, leaves, and nettles, when summer comes. It seems sort of impossible that all that will melt down into compost but I'll give it a go.

 

[Juju]

I wouldn't recommend putting stubborn weeds on your compost (we don't at the National Trust) but I guess ivy might be ok - I don't at home as when I've spent hours pulling it up I want shot of it (goes in the council's garden waste collection). Nettles should be fine as they're good in so many ways (I love nettle tea!)
Juju

 

[skier-hughes]

Flyfisher- Grafting an old variety of apple on to a new rootstock well worth considering if you have nice old apple varieties nearby, and of course gives option of choosing trees suitable for different locations/purposes. Its extremely satisfying when the graft 'takes'!

That sounds rather technical to my feeble gardening mind, though I could perhaps be tempted to learn a new skill. But my plan for this year is to just wait and see if the now-propped-up tree survives and produces any fruit this year, which I'll then try to get positively identified. If it really does turn out to be a bit of a rarity then I'd quite like the idea of propagating it. Thanks for the suggestion.

If it looks like it might be coming along, but then again looks like it isn't doing well, take lots of the fruit off as it is starting to form, this will mean more goodness stays in the tree, rather than going to the fruit.

 

[worms]

The pests we get ( the big roaches and little gekos ) are really only pests because they have come inside.

I have never considered geckos as pests, except when they get into a fight and fall off the ceiling on to you! They eat the mosquitoes and other beasties. And what's a little gecko poo between friends!

 

[Penners]

I have never considered geckos as pests, except when they get into a fight and fall off the ceiling on to you!

You get plenty of geckos up there at the North Pole, do you?

 

[Penners]

It seems sort of impossible that all that will melt down into compost but I'll give it a go.

Pretty well anything organic can be composted. The trick, as you have noted, is to mix the different types of material well. Don't let the pile dry out, but don't let it get really soaked, either. And every few months, dig the heap out and pile it all back up again, so that the ingredients get remixed and stay fluffed up, so the air can get into the heap.

You should also encourage Chris to... ahem..... "water" the heap as often as he feels inclined. Not you - him. Apparently the male stuff is a far more effective activator than the female.

If you're lucky, your heap will get good and hot, which will help it to break down and will kill weed seeds. But making a good compost heap is more of an art than a science, and there's a strong element of luck to it.

No offence to Juju, but personally I wouldn't put ivy on the heap - or if I did it would be the leaves only. Ivy is terribly reluctant to rot.

 

[Moo]

Ivy is terribly reluctant to rot.

- but quite keen to root, I believe.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks very much for the advice on compost. I find getting rid of the weed waste one of the hardest things - currently I'm filling around one large bin bag full a day, I have to confess to just dumping them alongside the public footpath. ( which is 2 car widths wide so I think I'm getting away with this - hope they rot down, but as Penners says, ivy doesn't seem to want to)
I didn't know about digging the compost bin out and putting it all back - good job for Louise my gardener ( who isn't a gardener but who works hard and is learning, like me).
It's coming into the season of there being so much to do. 8)

 

[FamilyWiggs]

I find getting rid of the weed waste one of the hardest things - currently I'm filling around one large bin bag full a day, I have to confess to just dumping them alongside the public footpath.

Not in the bin bags I hope, Joce! :shock:

Thanks for the link to the Welsh nursery upthread - I'll check it out. Sadly (well, actually quite happily) our neighbours are a long way way with different weather in different parts of the valley.. and don't seem ot have many fruit trees. We are in quite a windy spot in the winter, so trees will need to be hardy.

Must try and get to Aldi's too.

 

[R King]

Joce - Thanks for the very kind offer of bantie chicks. We are about to collect some more and will be chickened out by then! Maybe next year though?.....

We have just finished planting our orchard. I think it will take more than a couple of years before I can walk under boughs smothered in blossom as it looks like we have planted a bunch of twigs! I must learn to be more patient.

I will post pictures shortly.

Raf

 

[JoceAndChris]

Of course not in bin bags Robin! The trees have all gone from our local Aldi but it may be different where you are. Hope you can get some good varieties.

Well done RAF, look forward to pics of trees/ chicks.

Just seeded it all this morning, let's hope the chickens soon get bored with eating the seed.

 

[robgil]

We chuck all sorts on our compost, we have a compost bin for food stuffs etc. Cardboard can go on if you shred it , straw is good but you need to put the same amount of brown stuff as green stuff.
Male pee is a good activator but you can buy activators as well , compost worms are good.
Turn it over every few months. I wouldn't put ivy stalks in there , they will take too long to break down.
Your local council should have a web site with a part of it devoted to composting. If you get it wrong you will end up with a pile of wet sludge, get it right and you will end up with lovely rich compost.

 

[R King]

Chicken poo is a great activator for compost heaps. We always put the sweepings from the hen house on the heap. We have also lots of torn up cardboard (brown) and just added loads of grass clipping sludge (green) left by the previous owners. This has been mixed together and should rot down beautifully, I hope.


Raf

 

[Ushy M]

Joce, have recently started the RHS Certificate in Horticulture course at night class so feel amply qualified to throw in my two-pennorth :lol:
Agree with the advice already about composition of compost/mulch around your fruit trees - if you have wood-only ash, this is also very useful to spread around the base to encourage strong root growth. I've had some success with shade-tolerant grass seed, but it may not be very hardy (in terms of resistance to chicken scratching for instance). If you want to go all technical and Latin here are some grass types from coarser and hardier at the top to finer and more delicate at the bottom:

Rye grass (Lolium perenne)
Smooth stalked meadow grass (poa pretense)
Red Fescue (Festuca rubra)
Browntop bent (Agrostis tenuis)

So a football field might be 100% ryegrass and a domestic lawn, say, 50% smooth stalk meadow, 35% fescue, 15% browntop bent. Wood meadow grass (poa nemerosa) will grow in shadier areas. Right, off to cut my mostly moss 50 foot "lawn" now!

 

[JoceAndChris]

That's interesting - how nice to be an expert on such matters Ushy! What a useful course.

I had a good look at the different kinds of grass seed and worked out the cost. In the end the experimental nature of my project induced me to pick B&Q family lawn seed, which promises to be pretty hard wearing but not as hard wearing or expensive as the football field mix.

I seeded it last week, it was fairly hard work and I'm not sure it will be successful. Despite attempting to discourage my flock from eating it by other treats I do notice that a lot of the seed has gone. There has also been no rain to speak of and it's very hard work to water by watering can. (Insufficient water here for hosepipe)

Despite these difficulties I am really determined to grass that area so if this doesn't work out will persuade my husband to buy more electric fencing, get the chainsaw onto the spinney, move the chickens into there, and rest this section for the summer...

I feel too mean confining the birds to a run as they are very used to stomping about over a large area and I believe this is crucial to their health. The Blue Orpingtons have become extremely overweight during winter - The Earl of Harrowby is around 8 kilos and I fear for his heart; he must be encouraged to exercise as much as possible.

Excitingly ( though perhaps only for me, sorry), I have just bought some fairly rare hatching eggs on EBay. White Cochin Large Fowls, Queen Victoria's favourite chicken. They are like enormous cloud like pom poms and I can't wait to see them feasting in the orchard - but mine is also pretty twiggy and unimpressive at present, so I will have to wait a long while.