Making a grassy orchard

[JoceAndChris]

Can anyone offer any advice as to how best to get grass to grow? I'm hoping to seed as the area is 1000 sq m: I think turf will be too expensive. It's the bit of garden where the chickens live, and thanks to a very cheap offer at Aldi it now has 18 fruit trees - think I'll put in another 10; a mix of mulberry and medlar. Is it really impossible to get grass to grow beneath fruit trees, with chickens? They are an unbelievably lazy variety of chicken and just want to snooze in the sun, so I'm hoping they'll allow the grass to grow if I peg netting over the seed.

I've spent an awful lot of time removing ground ivy and digging the earth and the soil is fantastic, worm rich and dark and crumbly, I think it must be high in nitrogen as nettles love it.

Does anyone have any recommendations of types of grass or methods with this? Is it just a question of raking, levelling, seeding, netting and watering?

These pics of the top section of the area were taken before all the clearing - it's much more black and bare now.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

thanks to a very cheap offer at Aldi it now has 18 fruit trees

Details!

 

[skier-hughes]

In our orchard, I just cleared the area and left it, grass grew. I keep an area the size of the branches under each of the fruit trees mulched/manured.
For seeding, do it when the temp is 5° or higher so that it grows quickly and well.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Graham - great tips. I haven't mulched the existing fruit trees before, do you think they'd like my compost (which is mainly leaf-mould) or is it best to get well rotted horse manure?

Robin - I don't know if they'd be in your area or not, it is worth keeping a close eye on supermarkets I've found. These ones might be grown locally? I know our local Sainsbury's benefits from all the bulbs grown in Spalding.
It was fantastic, they're about 6 feet tall and were £3.99. Just common varieties though - Royal Victoria Plum, Golden delcious, cherry, pear.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Thanks Graham - great tips. I haven't mulched the existing fruit trees before, do you think they'd like my compost (which is mainly leaf-mould) or is it best to get well rotted horse manure?

Robin - I don't know if they'd be in your area or not, it is worth keeping a close eye on supermarkets I've found. These ones might be grown locally? I know our local Sainsbury's benefits from all the bulbs grown in Spalding.
It was fantastic, they're about 6 feet tall and were £3.99. Just common varieties though - Royal Victoria Plum, Golden delcious, cherry, pear.

Back soon... off to Aldi's. Never been but this might be worth it...

 

[skier-hughes]

Mulching will stop weeds and grass growing under your tree and pinching nutrients, it will help stop the soil drying out in the summer and feed the tree at the same time. If you have plenty of well rotted leaf mulch I'd use that, it's on site, it's free and it gets rid of it for you.

 

[skier-hughes]

Back soon... off to Aldi's. Never been but this might be worth it...

So embarrassed yesterday, I went in to Lidl and they declined my card

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol: But oh dear!

I was appalled in Aldi that there was no opportunity to pack the bags at the end of the counter, but, the costs are very low. FW, while you're there check out the real ales.

Graham - thanks - I've been wondering and wondering what to do with the tons of leaf compost I could produce, I have one large compost bin brim full and in the last year have just been making heaps here and there. Now and again I add the chicken litter to it but I think this is going to take years to break down as it's newspaper and dust extracted wood shavings. So in the main the chicken litter goes in landfill which seems an awful waste of potentially nutritious compost. I think there's a pour-on chemical you can use to break the matter down more rapidly- anyone tried that?

 

[skier-hughes]

wood aparently takes the nitrogen out of the soil, so isn't great for using on plants, though chicken poo is really good.

 

[downshifter]

We are getting some fruit trees soon to start our orchard, but are paying more than the cheap supermarket offers as we are getting traditional local varieties. We take the view that traditional varieties are as much part of the heritage of the land as period properties and need to be encouraged. But its the balance to be struck between the cost of cheap versus traditional.

Any views on this?

 

[robgil]

The last orchard i planted was 40 odd trees a few years ago, the trees didnt come from Aldi.
What we did was plant the trees (january, not ideal) by digging a hole and filling the tree back in with a mixture of soil and bagged compost and some slow release pellets to feed them , then bark mulch ontop.
you will also need two fence posts either side of the tree with rubber strapping around all to stop it suffering from wind damage, then you need wire to prevent deer damage, also rabbits eat tree bark and love young trees. We did all this under the guidance of a very good landscape architect fella from Winchester.
Ive been back a few times and the trees really are doing well, lots of fruit in the first year which was surprising and much more by the second. We only lost one pear tree which was a bit of a weak one anyway.
We didnt take any pollination into account so not quite sure what the fruit yields will be like when the trees are mature, hopefully there will be enough bees around to do a good enough job.
I wouldn't pin my hopes on trees from Aldi , sorry.

 

[Flyfisher]

Joce, I'm no gardening expert but I'm wondering if all your existing trees will conspire against a decent lawn - and that's before taking into account all the new fruit trees and chickens. I hope I'm wrong but I think you're wise not to spend lots of money on turf.

We take the view that traditional varieties are as much part of the heritage of the land as period properties and need to be encouraged. But its the balance to be struck between the cost of cheap versus traditional.

Any views on this?

I've no idea of the price variation but it must be a good to keep the more traditional varieties thriving - biodiverity and all that.

We have an old cooking apple tree that, sadly, fell over in the autumn and, coincidentally, I've been trimming it back and propping it up today. Hopefully it'll re-establish itself this year. I've never really known its type, but it was quite prolific and produced large green slightly fluffy apples.

A couple of years ago, our Jewsons delivery driver arrived all excited and said he'd seen a TV programme about old Norfolk apples and he reckoned ours was a Norfolk Dumpling, which is apparently quite rare.

A quick search for Norfolk Apples revealed this astonishingly long list:
http://www.applesandorchards.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100

I had no idea there were so many different varieties - and this is just for Norfolk!

I also found this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/6335916/Extinct-Norfolk-Dumpling-apple-grown-again.html
which suggests that the Norfolk Dumpling was thought to be extinct from 1920, so I have some reservations that ours really is one. But the photo and description does seem to match, although our apples look larger than the one pictured in that article. Perhaps I should wait for this year's crop (if the poor tree survives) and then contact the East of England Apples and Orchards Project.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I also found this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/6335916/Extinct-Norfolk-Dumpling-apple-grown-again.html
which suggests that the Norfolk Dumpling was thought to be extinct from 1920, so I have some reservations that ours really is one. But the photo and description does seem to match, although our apples look larger than the one pictured in that article. Perhaps I should wait for this year's crop (if the poor tree survives) and then contact the East of England Apples and Orchards Project.

Then there's no "perhaps" about it. It is your civic duty to nurse that tree back to health, and find out what it is.

 

[Pford75]

The grounds of our house used to include more than 40 acres of orchards. Most of the land was sold off and converted to arable some time in the 80s by the previous owners. Our paddock is essentially a thin strip at the end of the field that was sold off.

We have apx. 1 acre of orchard with perhaps 4 different varieties...nothing too rare though. We've been planting new trees and Mrs F had some success taking grafts from existing trees. We have also added greengage, plum and damson.

We have always had plenty of grass, but we have seeded sections of land. Birds are the biggest problem - pigeons and chickens! I agree with the suggestion to wait for warmer weather...you might also want to do some prep on netting and bird scarers in advance. Also, go for a 'utility mix' of seed which will be tougher and should germinate more quickly. If the area is large, consider a push spreader for seeding and feeding.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Hmmm - didn't make it to Aldi's... then got to thinking that an orchard is a very personal legacy to future generation/s. I don't now if I want to leave them Aldi's finest.

So - any ideas on nice traditional strains of fruit that will do well on the side of a hill in N Wales. Warm in summer (well warmish!) but bloody cold and windy in winter. No particular preferences as to fruit types - we like allsorts.

 

[LadyArowana]

- we like allsorts.

I don't think those grow on trees.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

- we like allsorts.

I don't think those grow on trees.

No, it's a shrub:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquorice

 

[Schoolmarm]

I suppose if you got a horsey mix of seed it would be quite hardwearing grass.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Marm that sounds like a very good suggestion.

Snobby lot, despising Aldi's finest. of course I'd prefer beautiful, expensive old varieties grown in a local nursery but that's not really an option at present. As more of the cottage gets done maybe we can add some in at a later date. Unless you make metal, permanent plaques for your trees who will know after you've gone?

I know nothing about fruit trees ( must read more) but my experience of roses is that you want new varieties that are disease resistant and hardy. Hardy is particularly important for here.

We'll see how the Aldi ones get along, the soil is amazingly fertile and stuff typically grows like wildfire.

 

[JoceAndChris]

PS Thanks to Pford and FF for the advice - Pford- your orchard sounds wonderful.
FF - I think grass will grow if it's watered, thats going to be the main problem, as you're right that the vast beeches there are taking the water. Must fix the shed water barrel system that's there.
Also, on your apple tree, apple trees live a maximum of 80 years, apparently. So don't go beating yourself up if it dies. Is there a way to take a cutting of it and get it to propagate?