Lubricating grandfather

[worms]

Any advice for the best oil to use on the grandfather clock?

Last time I oiled it, I used WD40, which I now gather is not a good idea (although it has been fine for ten years). I really don't want to spend a fortune on a bottle of expensive oil that I am going to use two drops of every ten years. I have a big drum of EP90 gear oil from Land Rover days which I tend to use for everything else (bikes, lawn mowers, gates etc) and wondered if this might do the trick.

Or is an agricultural engineering approach to a 150 year old clock not quite the done thing?

 

[Nigel Watts]

Clock oils are a specialist area. The ideal clock oil is one which is quite sticky. This is desirable because you want the oil to stay in the pivots holes and not run elsewhere, where they would gather dirt and deprive the pivot of its oil. The stickiest oils are of vegetable origin (neapsfoot oil is a good example), but the downside of vegetable oils is that they deteriorate (harden) more quickly than mineral oil. A good modern clock oil is a compromise and incorporates a blend of vegetable and mineral oils.

Oil should be used very sparingly - one drop per pivot is probably sufficient. If you use the wrong oil the rate of wear will increase.

If a clock needs oiling it almost certainly needs cleaning. To clean a clock the mechanism should be completely dismantled, the parts cleaned, pivots polished, any worn pivot holes bushed, the pallets burnished etc. before reassembly.

Grandfather clocks however are usually very robust and will run for many years without such maintenance, but wear will occur and need to be dealt with at some point.

Mechanical clocks and watches need a great deal of maintenance if they are to be kept in good nick, which is costly because of the amount of work involved.

You say the clock needs oiling. What are its symptoms that made you conclude this?

 

[LadyArowana]

You could try calling Jeffry Rosson at City Clocks in London http://www.cityclocksonline.com/looking-after-your-clock/repair-information

City Clocks
31 Amwell Street
London EC1R 1UN
+44 (0) 20 7278 1154

Some people find him difficult to deal with ( particularly in regard to modern watches ) but I took an important ( sentimental not monetary ) family clock to him in very bad condition and they did an amazing repair job that no one else would even attempt. He warned me that it would take a while to find the relevant parts but it was worth the wait. We visited the workshop in Shropshire and the guys that worked there seemed like total treasures too.

 

[Nigel Watts]

You could try calling Jeffry Rosson at City Clocks in London http://www.cityclocksonline.com/looking-after-your-clock/repair-information

City Clocks
31 Amwell Street
London EC1R 1UN
+44 (0) 20 7278 1154

Some people find him difficult to deal with ( particularly in regard to modern watches ) but I took an important ( sentimental not monetary ) family clock to him in very bad condition and they did an amazing repair job that no one else would even attempt. He warned me that it would take a while to find the relevant parts but it was worth the wait. We visited the workshop in Shropshire and the guys that worked there seemed like total treasures too.

How long ago was this? The place seems to have folded now or gone seriously downhill. I tried to get them to mend a 19th century french clock of mine and they were utterly hopeless, rude and uncooperative. They refused to talk to me at first about what was needed. I had just attended a clock repair course so did have some knowledge. They sent it away to their workshop and when they finally spoke to me it was to tell me they couldnt do it. The case needed some repair and adjustment because the mechanism (which I repaired and which works) wasnt held firmly enough - a slightly tricky job resulting from a bodged repair in the past. One of these days I will do it myself.

 

[Lime]

Oiling old large clock mechanisms is better than not oiling at all.
the worst thing for a clock is wear closely followed by dirt. (often made worse by too much oil having been used in the past)
As has been said the oil is hopefully placed at the pivot hole to stay.
Dirt makes that process more difficult as it acts like a wick.
Cleaning a clock properly is a serious business and I have seen many good clocks spoilt by careless use of pliers and the wrong type of pins.

Recently I bought a german wall clock.
I have never owned one before and was rather surprised at how crude it was (compared to french mantle or edwardian longcase for example) and it was filthy inside.
However I didn't want to dismantle the mechanism as it was so flimsy.

I decided to wash it whole using several spray cans of cutting oil.
I was pleasantly surprised to see that, what I thought were solid gears, were in fact pin gears.
The dirt was so thick between the pins they had looked solid. (and had stopped the clock)
The oil catching dish was full of fluff, hair and dirt.
I allowed it to drain and dry then used sewing machine oil.
(Don't over do the oil!)

The problem with using vegetable oil is that it gums over time and requires the clock to be dismantled to remove the gum.
The gumming appears to be speeded up by central heating.

EP90 smells. I wouldn't use it although it is superior to many oils.

Longcase clocks vary a lot but all maintain themselves better if dust and dirt is kept out.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Not only keep out the dust and dirt, but as free from damp air as possible. Salty air in North Norfolk has done untold, very expensive and dreadful damage to my clocks. Our longcase clock stood on a stone floor, with small wooden blocks underneath and still suffered.

 

[LadyArowana]

How long ago was this? The place seems to have folded now or gone seriously downhill. I tried to get them to mend a 19th century french clock of mine and they were utterly hopeless, rude and uncooperative. They refused to talk to me at first about what was needed. I had just attended a clock repair course so did have some knowledge. They sent it away to their workshop and when they finally spoke to me it was to tell me they couldnt do it. The case needed some repair and adjustment because the mechanism (which I repaired and which works) wasnt held firmly enough - a slightly tricky job resulting from a bodged repair in the past. One of these days I will do it myself.

We delivered the piece directly to the Shropsire workshop at the end of September '08. The guys there gave me their direct number so I would call them periodically to see how things were going. They needed to source a matching part and I had been warned that it was going to take time. The clock had a slate case and had lost it's "temple" type triangular top. They sent us pix of a possible replacement in around March '09, and said how much it would be, we thought it was good and told them to proceed. Collected it all done end June '09. I had talked to quite a few nice shops about doing it, Kings Road, Kensington Church St etc, and they wouldn't attempt it, because it was a) slate and b) not valuable. SO really I was out of options other than them. It was a family piece of sentimental value and in very poor condition. I didn't really want it around the place looking like it did, but getting rid of it would have caused issues. I know they were moving premises at some point so maybe you hit a difficult time.



I don't have the "before" pix on the laptop, but it could best be described as sad, and not what you would have wanted displayed on a mantelpiece. I had earmarked a place on a shelf in the kitchen ( in fact designed the space specifically so it could be there, but missing top not too obvious ), have now revised and it may be allowed to inhabit a mantlepiece elsewhere.

 

[Nigel Watts]

My clock repair tutor recommended this oil:

http://www.hswalsh.com/itemdetail.aspx?i=HOD4&c=640

but you can get cheaper ones:

http://www.hswalsh.com/Oil_Pioneer_Clock_100ml_.aspx?i=HO98&t=194

The way to apply the oil is to dip an oiler (a piece of brass wire with a flattened and rounded end - easily made at home) into the bottle, remove any excess by touching it to the bottle lip and then gently touch it to the oil sink round the pivot.

If you use pliers on a clock mechanism make sure they have flat jaws (general purpose pliers are unsuitable). Taper pins are often replaced when clocks are mended. They are quite cheap. Use steel pins in brass and brass pins in steel. HS walsh (see above links) can supply pretty much everything you need. They have a shop in Hatton Garden and a mail order service.

 

[philpjuk100]

The Horological institute is at Upton notts and is open when the clocks go back or forwards,advice is freely given (I belive they also have a "help"website) it`s well worth a visit.I have been been told that the hight torque wheels 1st and 2nd wheel need a heavy oil(sae 15 motor oil) and the low torque parts 3rd,4th,escapement pivots,balance pivots,escape wheel teeth and strike govenor all need a light oil(3 in 1).I lubed both my weight driven clocks with WD40 many years ago which I have been told is wrong but they both still keep good time,maybe a good time to clean and re lube them now!.I would imagine that when the clocks were new lubrication was in its infancy and the clocks probably got lubed with lard! phil.

 

[Penners]

My clock repair tutor recommended this oil:

http://www.hswalsh.com/itemdetail.aspx?i=HOD4&c=640

Moebius Oils, eh? Do we infer that they last an infinite time?

 

[Nigel Watts]

I know they were moving premises at some point so maybe you hit a difficult time.

This may have had a lot to do with it. I am glad you had a good experience. The woman whom I eventually spoke to on the phone at the workshop was quite polite. The problem was at the London end.

This is my clock:

Like yours it's probably not that valuable but it belonged to my grandfather. It was in the house when we grew up, had never worked and was always dismissed as being too hideous so was kept on top of a display cupboard largely hidden by other knick knacks. It struck me as a good candidate to try my repair skills out on.

We had two tutors at our class. On old boy who had been the the trade in East London, and the main tutor - a serious expert on late 17th clocks and a former museum curator. The former saw it first "OOOOh look! Come over 'ere lads! 'Ave a look at this - It's a LEEEEROY!"

When the main tutor turned up he was less encouraging. "Eow. I saw something almost as hideous only last week".

The mechanism, like in many 19th C french clocks, is actually quite well made, however ugly the pseudo 17th C case. The problem is that the brass sleeve into which it should have been fitted before being inserted into the case had been replaced with a crude piece of tinplate (to its left in the picture) and the screws overtightened, distoring the case slightly. It needs a new brass sleeve and some ingenuity applied to the problem to overcome the distortion and fix the mechanism firmly in place.

 

[LadyArowana]

This is my clock:

When the main tutor turned up he was less encouraging. "Eow. I saw something almost as hideous only last week".

The mechanism, like in many 19th C french clocks, is actually quite well made, however ugly the pseudo 17th C case. The problem is that the brass sleeve into which it should have been fitted before being inserted into the case had been replaced with a crude piece of tinplate (to its left in the picture) and the screws overtightened, distoring the case slightly. It needs a new brass sleeve and some ingenuity applied to the problem to overcome the distortion and fix the mechanism firmly in place.

I think he is being rather harsh, I quite like it, at least it's shiny, ( :lol: you understand how important this is to girls like Joce and myself don't you ).

 

[Nigel Watts]

Some good, simple advice here:

http://www.m-p.co.uk/muk/ryoc/doc_page33.shtml

 

[worms]

Thanks for all the advice.

The symptom that makes me believe it needs oiling is that, as it winds itself up to chime, there is a fairly harsh grating noise. It has been consistenly three minutes slow per week for at least the last 45 years, so there is no evidence that the main clock mechanism is getting slower.

I hasten to add that when I used the WD40, I didn't spray it around the mechanism but put sparing amounts on the pivots using a wire to put drops on.

While the EP90 is a very light oil and does not solidify, I believe that oils with a sulphur content are not good for brass and that the bushes on a clock of this age may be brass. There are various clock oils available online at prices that are quite cheap but I've come across varied reports on their quality.

I see from the web that porpoise jaw oil is the best stuff, but I think the Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society might disagree!

 

[philpjuk100]

I never realised that porpoises needed their jaws lubricating,my grandfather was self lubricating,well he always looked well lubricated!phil.

 

[philpjuk100]

There is no need to worry about the sulphur in ep oils, it needs heat to damage brass,it can be used in the gearboxes of british seagull outboards which have brass bushes in but never get hot.The repairs carried out over the years can be very crude and yet the clocks still run,on one I own one gear spindle had worn the side plate badly until the gear must have been coming out of mesh and had worn oval,the side plate had been repaired by punching around the hole swelling it into the hole and the gear had two holes bored in it at the "low" spots and some sort of tapered punch had beem used to "lift" the low teeth!.I have drilled and bushed the side plate but the gear has had a few burrs removed and thats all! should be good for a further 200 years! phil.

 

[Nigel Watts]

as it winds itself up to chime, there is a fairly harsh grating noise

Sounds like the pivots of the striking train are either worn or in need of lubrication or both.

It has been consistenly three minutes slow per week for at least the last 45 years, so there is no evidence that the main clock mechanism is getting slower.

Have you thought of trying to adjust the pendulum length? There should be a nut on the bottom. Screw it in a fraction and the clock will go faster. Timekeeping will normally vary with temperature unless you have a wooden pendulum or a fancy compensating one.

If the friction in the going train increases it will not necessarily slow down the clock. Most longcase clocks have recoil escapements which are pretty tolerant of the power varying. Deadbeat escapements, which are more often used in regulator (high precision) clocks, are less tolerant of the power varying. If the second had appears to go back a little after each beat you have a recoil escapement.

I believe that oils with a sulphur content are not good for brass and that the bushes on a clock of this age may be brass.

If your clock has a conventional 8 day movement the plates and wheels should all be in brass, with the pivots, pinions and pallets in steel. Bushes would not have been necessary when the clock was made as the pivot holes would have been drilled directly in the plates (jewelled pivots in fancy regularors excepted). Only after repair would a brass bush be inserted.

 

[Moo]

I am, to put it mildly, astonished.
A thread with a title that invites a long and vulgar detour, and so far it's stuck firmly and soberly to relevant technicalities.

 

[Penners]

so far it's stuck firmly and soberly to relevant technicalities.

Sorry - I just haven't been pulling my weight, have I?

 

[Moo]

Well -
~ as you may have noticed, I named no names, but ......