Listing Question

[LadyArowana]

Is it possible to view the complete listing for a property online? I know our reference number and have checked what I could find, but it is very minimal, very very minimal. I just wondered if that is all there is or whether there is an expanded version somewhere. Given that almost all of Bath is listed I suppose it's not surprising they do a lot of things as "numbers 1 - 17" XYZ..... but maybe I'm missing something. BTW I used the English Heritage website.

 

[middi]

It is not practical to list every "nut and bolt" that a listed property is put toghether with. A brief mention of age and elevation aspects, including some internal features that merits a special description, is just about all you are going to find when dealing with the average grade 2 listed building description.
Grade II* and grade I will have a bit more detailled description regarding some features to highlight points that influenced the special historical interest and grading.This has been my experience.
The obvious thing to remember ( as any listed building owner is expected to know ? :? ) is that if one intends to change some " nuts or bolts" on any of these buildings you need listed building consent.

Middi

 

[johnobirches]

Before we bought our current house we tried unsuccessfully to buy another property which was grade II listed. The listing description was about three sentences which noted the date stone, some drip courses and mullioned windows externally. Internally it mentioned the existence of two oak doors [didn't say where] and that was it. The owner [a proper rogue hence the non-purchase] had committed various horrors on the house and we had to investigate closely what we might have been liable for especially if any of the listed features had been altered [they had!]. I spoke to English Heritage and to the local conservation team [very helpful].

The outcome was that there was no more official information in addition to the listing description. They were often done on a drive-by basis and no more comprehensive survey or description was compiled and stored 'behind' the initial description. However your local authority will have the property's listing at their fingertips and may well have a file on it [including photographs] because of past consultations they have had, and this will undoubtedly constitute some sort of baseline for them in the future. As middi has said - I'm sure the more important the building, the more likely it is that more detailed descriptions will exist.
Regards
John

 

[lordmulberry]

Before I bought our grade II listed property in 1997 I visited the local council. They had a very comprehensive file on the listing detailing all the features. This also included some details of authorised works that the vendor had carried out in the early 1980s.

Have you tride the relevant local authority?
Cheers

 

[LadyArowana]

Have you tride the relevant local authority?
Cheers

They don't have anything available online. I was really just interested in finding out whether such a brief description was usual, and whether I had looked in the right place by using the EH website. The person who wrote it seemed to have had a quick glance at the front of a group of houses and left it at that.

 

[Moo]

The descriptions on the EH site are not only scanty - they can be inaccurate.
Our house in South Norfolk must have been a case of 'drive-by' inspection: it's set a fair way back from the road and the lovely old red bricks have been painted ever since it was vandalised in the 1920s. The EH entry still describes it as being stuccoed, in spite of the fact that over the past five years I've made repeated requests for them to change it.

 

[MdB]

The descriptions on the EH site are not only scanty - they can be inaccurate.
Our house in South Norfolk must have been a case of 'drive-by' inspection: it's set a fair way back from the road and the lovely old red bricks have been painted ever since it was vandalised in the 1920s. The EH entry still describes it as being stuccoed, in spite of the fact that over the past five years I've made repeated requests for them to change it.

The same applies to a number of the local listed buildings here. The details are wrong and in one case the house doesn't really justify listing as it was mainly rebuilt a few years before listing. Details on the listing (oak beam over door etc) were only put there recently.

 

[MatthewC]

In 2003 the lenders had a drive-by survey before we bought a pretty new flat in London which seemed fair enough, but I'd never thought of the concept of a "drive-by" listing.

That could explain why our listing says "Coursed squared limestone with stucco dressings" which is what the front has but the sides and back of the house are sort of coursed rubble, and the stucco is actually 1950s cement. There is some more detail on the front and then it ends with "... and there is a large central stack. Interior not inspected" - but there is another stack at the back, plus one on the side. They should have added "sides and back not inspected either"!!

 

[Flyfisher]

The descriptions on the EH site are not only scanty - they can be inaccurate.
Our house in South Norfolk must have been a case of 'drive-by' inspection: it's set a fair way back from the road and the lovely old red bricks have been painted ever since it was vandalised in the 1920s. The EH entry still describes it as being stuccoed, in spite of the fact that over the past five years I've made repeated requests for them to change it.

I wonder if such inaccuracies have ever caused problems for an owner?

 

[Penners]

The reasons for listing buildings are extremely varied, but any one building may only have perhaps one "special" feature that has made it worthy of listing. And so the listing may only mention that one feature. It's certainly true that the official description in the listing can be very scant indeed.

You will know, of course, that even if the building has only been listed for - say - a couple of special windows, the whole building and its curtilege is nevertheless listed. So people who say things like, "we have a couple of listed windows", are missing the point.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Have you tride the relevant local authority?
Cheers

They don't have anything available online. I was really just interested in finding out whether such a brief description was usual, and whether I had looked in the right place by using the EH website. The person who wrote it seemed to have had a quick glance at the front of a group of houses and left it at that.

Not that unusual. The 1980s listing resurvey was done in a tearing hurry after the demolition of the Firestone Building just before it was due to be listed, and a lot of descriptions are factually incorrect. That doesn't matter though, as the descriptions at the time weren't legally part of the listing (only the address is). Some of the earlier (1950s) list descriptions are pretty brief too:

Mainly the work of Bishop Ralph de Luffa (pillars and arches of the nave and choir) 1091-1123. Retro-choir 1199, aisles 1223-1244. Lady chapel 1288-1305. Tower and spire, originally C13 and C15 respectively, rebuilt after fall in 1861 by Sir Gilbert Scott and Slater. Cloisters C15. (Restoration 1840-60 by R C Carpenter and J Butler. 1901 - north-west tower replaced by J L Pearson).

That's the whole text of the entry for Chichester Cathedral

 

[LadyArowana]

Thanks Gareth and everyone, our listing was done in 1950. Interestingly it makes no mention of one of the special features of the place ( Cotswold stone roof over some windows on the rear elevation ), but does note an early change done at the front. Ours is the only one in an otherwise symmetrical group that has had Venetian windows adapted and the balconette removed. I have a pre-war picture and you can identify that those changes are already made. I assume they simply didn't bother to go and look at the back, although it is possible from one location. Seems that isn't an uncommon state of affairs.

When we were looking to buy I was keen to choose a place where everything was basically where I wanted it. Bathrooms are a particular issue since the houses never had them originally. There is a property nearby for sale at the moment and it has 5 bedrooms, but only one small bathroom on the 3rd floor and a minuscule shower room on the basement level. I'm really glad it wasn't on offer when we were house shopping as it is a lovely place apart from that, and I would have been tempted. However unless you could convert another room to a master bathroom it would be a monumental pain to live there. Ours is a similar floor plan, bit less sq ft, but done so no stairs between bed and bath for us at the expense of one bedroom.

However one of the things I would really like to do is to replace the missing decorative ironwork at the front. Not because it makes a particular difference to the utility of living there ( might be a nice place for some window boxes or Christmas decorations, hardly essential ) but because to my eye it spoils the symmetry of the group, in the way that a missing front tooth would spoil a nice smile! It is not unprecedented to get LBC for such things and I have been keeping an eye on the planning portal to file copies of relevant documents to use as reference if we decide to apply eventually. In the course of reviewing some of those my interest was piqued as to how varied the detail was on some of the descriptions, and I wondered if I had missed something. Of course even if we got consent there would be the matter of the piggy bank, I'm guessing such things are not cheap and the place is likely to need a bunch of other stuff done. I have been squirreling away the rent, but ongoing repairs nibble at that....... Still, I set a good precedent by renovating in London and persuading his Lordship that non essentials can be essential and worth the extra £.

 

[agbagb]

agbagb's missus

Sorry Lady Ac}c0

Christmas decs are extremely essential in our abode. I've spent the last two days humping (don't laugh) various pieces of furniture about. Bear in mind we have a large Victorian house plus the contents of a fisherman's cottage hoarded here. I (missus) insist that all xmas trees are up and running by the time the kids come down and open their advents (1st Dec)

 

[LadyArowana]

agbagb's missus

Sorry Lady Ac}c0

Christmas decs are extremely essential in our abode. I've spent the last two days humping (don't laugh) various pieces of furniture about. Bear in mind we have a large Victorian house plus the contents of a fisherman's cottage hoarded here. I (missus) insist that all xmas trees are up and running by the time the kids come down and open their advents (1st Dec)

Oh I totally agree, and even in this always hot and not particularly Christian outpost I festoon the place with festive cheer. In fact I just bought a glass "Christmas squirrel" and "Christmas sparkly snail" to add to the elephants for the tree :lol: I was meaning that a small iron balconette has limited actual use, although if I was allowed to replace it then come December it would look great decorated with swags of holly and ivy ( OK and a sparkly elephant or two.... don't tell the CO about that if we apply ).

 

[agbagb]

Agbagb's missus

Ok, we'll keep it between ourselves :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Penners]

one of the things I would really like to do is to replace the missing decorative ironwork at the front.

If this is going to reinstate an original feature and restore the symmetry of the row, I can't believe you'll have anything other than encouragement from your CO.

 

[LadyArowana]

one of the things I would really like to do is to replace the missing decorative ironwork at the front.

If this is going to reinstate an original feature and restore the symmetry of the row, I can't believe you'll have anything other than encouragement from your CO.

I hope that's true, but extensive review of the decisions shows that it can all be a little arbitrary.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I am secretly wanting LadyA to leave her hot heathen outpost and come to grace the beautiful Bath townhouse. I'm sure that with her excellent taste and judgement she'd do a very fine job of the missing decorative ironwork and anything else, and like Mr P think full support would be given for such a change.

The 1980s listing resurvey was done in a tearing hurry after the demolition of the Firestone Building just before it was due to be listed, and a lot of descriptions are factually incorrect. That doesn't matter though, as the descriptions at the time weren't legally part of the listing (only the address is). Some of the earlier (1950s) list descriptions are pretty brief too:

Mainly the work of Bishop Ralph de Luffa (pillars and arches of the nave and choir) 1091-1123. Retro-choir 1199, aisles 1223-1244. Lady chapel 1288-1305. Tower and spire, originally C13 and C15 respectively, rebuilt after fall in 1861 by Sir Gilbert Scott and Slater. Cloisters C15. (Restoration 1840-60 by R C Carpenter and J Butler. 1901 - north-west tower replaced by J L Pearson).

That's the whole text of the entry for Chichester Cathedral

Isn't it true that EH listing was based on the work of one great man, Nikolaus Pevsner, who wrote the astonishing 46 volumed work "Buildings of England"? And being just one person, he sent out his associates, like the lovely author and curator John Harris, who so very kindly wrote to you about his memory of my little house, when he walked up from Grantham to Harrowby Hall, then a youth hostel, to stay there and make his study of Lincolnshire. Which is why BC was mentioned in Pevsner, from J Harris' little observation, but not listed, as you can't drive by this place. And you wrote the description of BC, which has basically been echoed by EH in a very lengthy 2012 listing description.

I think EH should be told and told again if there are inaccuracies, but the lady who dealt with my application said she is terribly busy unlisting things that have lost all semblance to the historic buildings they once were.

I expect Chris could hack into the online database and flesh out the descriptions in about half an hour, if anyone wants it done. :twisted:

 

[Penners]

the work of Bishop Ralph de Luffa

Who is, of course, better known for his invention of the bathtime back scrubber.

 

[worms]

I am secretly wanting LadyA to leave her hot heathen outpost...

I'll house-sit! I'll even feed the elephants!