Lintels, joist ends and wall plates

[Flyfisher]

It is not possible to confirm the extent of possible decay until such time as areas are laid open for more detailed examination.”

We can all speculate until kingdom come but that sentence pretty much sums it up.

Perhaps the only real safe way forward is to ask the vendor if the areas can be exposed for further examination and, if they refuse, reduce the offer price by the amount required to make full repairs based on a worst-case. The vendor might not be happy but it's hardly an unreasonable position for a potential purchaser to take.

 

[Lime]

And I am pretty sure dry rot needs fresh water, not ground water to develop- so it rarely ever comes from the ground up, usually from guttering, downpipes and pipe leaks.
Is there a downpipe or drain outside that area or a bathroom nearby your prospective house?

Ground water has dissolved salts (chemicals) in it.
Dry rot requires fresh water as you say Schoolmarm.

 

[Gemma]

Flyfisher, you say the only safe way forward is to ask the vendor if the areas can be exposed for further examination and I'm just wondering if you know of any cases where a vendor has actually done this?

Moo, I don't know whether the render is new or old, cement or lime, and the survey report doesn't say. This is what it says about the render on the walls:


“The external render appeared in remarkably sound condition, and appeared also reasonably well keyed. 
 
It will be very difficult to resolve penetrating dampness problems.  It is understood that the current owner has pressure hosed the external fabric enclosing the first and second floor accommodation, and has treated the external wall surface with a water seal.  This can have quite significant benefits in reducing penetrating dampness although relies on the external fabric to be in good order and free from cracking and other defects.  It is a material which is not permanent, and is likely to require reapplication, perhaps every 5 years but dependent on the quality of the material used.”


I should point out that only the first and second floors are mentioned because they comprise the maisonette we are interested in. The ground floor, apart from the maisonette's entrance porch and hall, is a separate flat.

Thanks,
Gemma  

 

 

 

[Flyfisher]

Flyfisher, you say the only safe way forward is to ask the vendor if the areas can be exposed for further examination and I'm just wondering if you know of any cases where a vendor has actually done this?

Not personally, but I don't think that's relevant. A house sale is a negotiation, there are no real rules and the vendor is perfectly at liberty to ask whatever questions or request whatever actions that they feel are necessary in order to satisfy themselves about making the purchase. Of course, the vendor is equally at liberty not to answer questions or cooperate with invasive surveys. The prospective purchaser must then take the vendors answers/refusals into account during their decision making.

However, I also mentioned an 'or' in my previous post because, I admit, I would not be surprised if the vendor refused an invasive survey. The 'or' is to assume the worst and factor in the necessary repairs by offering a reduced price.

 

[Penners]

Conducting a visual inspection of joist and lintel ends is undoubtedly going to be very invasive, involving the hacking out of masonry and/or plaster, and the lifting of floorboards.

I reckon your chances of the vendors agreeing to this are just about zero. And, in fairness, I have to say that I certainly wouldn't agree, if I were them. If you carried out this work and then decided to walk away, they're left with all the problems of making good the damage before they can consider putting the house back on the market.

 

[Nemesis]

The question to ask is - was there any sign or symptom that there might be lurking rot? If yes, what?

If no - then how far does a surveyor go to guard his/her back?

 

[JohnM]

Maybe I've missed this in scanning the thread, but have you tried asking the vendor why the floorboards and skirting have been replaced ? You could also ask if any timber treatment has been carried out to the property and if there are any guarantees.

We've had two outbreaks of dry rot and the contractor we used told me that he knows where all the hotspots are in his area - there are some streets where it appears to be endemic. You could try phoning some local dry rot specialists to see if they have carried out work in the vicinity - I've no idea if they would tell you but it would do no harm to ask !

Best of luck

John

 

[Nemesis]

Dry rot specialists can be a bit like damp 'proofers'. They can be making cash from 'treating' stuff which may not require it.

Remove the source of damp and the fungus goes along with it.

Try a site seach here, dry rot and Matt Green should bring some old posts up.

http://www.ridoutassociates.co.uk/articles.htm

 

[AMc]

Going back to the original post

“The current owner has undertaken a general refurbishment of the building and a specific enquiry should be made as to whether timber lintels were exposed for examination and treated or repaired as necessary.

If you haven't already you need your solicitor to get this answered in writing by their solicitor so it has some legal weight. If it were me I would want a detailed written statement about what work had been done in general. If the vendor is on the level they won't have an issue with this, they should have receipts, guarantees etc. if they're cagey then you may find other things in the house have been rushed or DIYed (e.g. Electrics, heating).
I would also want to compare what they've done with what they should have got building control approval for - if they've undertaken major renovation without BC approval they may have simply missed the admin or they may have taken shortcuts that will bite you later. No reason to suppose they have, but no basis to assume they haven't either and "buyer beware" is my moto when buying a house.

Good luck

 

[Lime]

(1)“The current owner has undertaken a general refurbishment of the building and a specific enquiry should be made as to whether timber lintels were exposed for examination and treated or repaired as necessary. If they have not been inspected, this is a potential area for further examination at some stage in the future. The cost implication of removal of decayed lintels would be considerable, and ideally further examination should be undertaken sooner rather than later in order that you may have the opportunity of renegotiation of the purchase price should such defects be identified.

We are particularly concerned with the possible risk of dry rot affecting the timber lintels and extending to other elements of construction.”


(2)“It would appear that a decay problem has existed in the past, given that there is evidence of repaired floors and renewal of skirting boards. We would anticipate that there may be a decay problem to joist ends, wall plates and timber lintels. Any original structural timbers would not have been pre treated, and are therefore vulnerable for possible decay problems.

If no guarantees exist for general timber treatment throughout the building, we would recommend that this is put in hand. We would also recommend, if possible, some further examination of joist ends, wall plates and lintels to assess existing condition.”

This is the type of thing I'd expect from a mortgage survey carried out for a high-borrowing low-capital house purchase.

 

[Nemesis]

We have new floors and skirtings downstairs. not because of rot but because the existing were rubbish, made up of bits and pieces.

We have never considered, either, knocking off sound (Georgian) plaster in order to expsose lintels just in case, very bad conservation and as there is no sign of a problem, why would we do it?


However, unless there is a genuine problem, the idea of 'timber treatment' being put 'in hand' ie indiscriminate spraying just in case is hardly something to be recommended and indeed, I do not think is what any reputable company should carry out.

 

[Gemma]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Nemesis, John M and AMc - As you suggested, we're going to question the vendor and surveyor regarding rot, timber treatment, receipts and guarantees. In the survey report there's no mention of any sign or symptom that rot might be lurking only a 'concern' that it could be, owing to the level of penetrating dampness present. We'll ask how 'concerned' they are about this.

Lime – I'm not sure what you mean by “This is the type of thing I'd expect from a mortgage survey carried out for a high-borrowing low-capital house purchase.” The surveyor wouldn't know whether we are getting a mortgage or not surely.

Thanks,
Gemma