Lintels, joist ends and wall plates

[Gemma]

We recently had a building survey carried out on a Victorian maisonette and were advised that lintels, joist ends and wall plates should be further examined. How do you further examine lintels, joist ends and wall plates before buying the property? Surely this would be invasive and require decorative repair afterwards. If a lintel needs replacing what would be the likely cost?

The following recommendations were copied from the survey.

(1)“The current owner has undertaken a general refurbishment of the building and a specific enquiry should be made as to whether timber lintels were exposed for examination and treated or repaired as necessary.  If they have not been inspected, this is a potential area for further examination at some stage in the future.  The cost implication of removal of decayed lintels would be considerable, and ideally further examination should be undertaken sooner rather than later in order that you may have the opportunity of renegotiation of the purchase price should such defects be identified.
 
We are particularly concerned with the possible risk of dry rot affecting the timber lintels and extending to other elements of construction.”

 
(2)“It would appear that a decay problem has existed in the past, given that there is evidence of repaired floors and renewal of skirting boards.  We would anticipate that there may be a decay problem to joist ends, wall plates and timber lintels. Any original structural timbers would not have been pre treated, and are therefore vulnerable for possible decay problems.
 
If no guarantees exist for general timber treatment throughout the building, we would recommend that this is put in hand.  We would also recommend, if possible, some further examination of joist ends, wall plates and lintels to assess existing condition.”


Thanking you,
Gemma

 

[middi]

How do you examine lintels, joists end, etc... ??. By taking away anything that is covering them up and expose what you want to look at.

( I don't think X ray machines have been invented for this purpose a yet )

Given the above it leaves a prospective buyer with three choises.
1) forget all about the purchase.
2) a substantial amount of money is deducted from the purchase prize.
3) takes a risk, and hopes the building will not collapse on their heads within the next fifty years or so.

Of course, first, the seller should be asked for any evidence to prove the these are in reasonably good condition ( I am sceptical that this could be proved)

 

[biffvernon]

(2)“It would appear that a decay problem has existed in the past,

Anyone seen a Victorian house without?

 

[Craig]

I would ask the surveyor to explain what he thinks (rather than what he is willing to write down)? His explanation is quite correct, i.e. it is what is possible, but he may be able to provide more colour if you talk to him.

 

[MdB]

A building surveyor can be sued if there is a fault with a building that he hasn't pointed out in his report. They therefore cover themselves by pointing out all the things that could be wrong that they haven't been able to inspect. 90% of the big fat report you have will be a copy paste from another report of a similar property so doesn't just apply to your building, but all buildings of a similar style. Worry a bit about issues like this but don't worry too much. An old property will have problems and comes with no guarantee so you will just have to fix the problems as best you can as you find them.

edit - having just seen Craig's comment, I second talking to the surveyor. They will verbally tell you what to worry about and what not to.

 

[Schoolmarm]

And then again...................a semi we bought, the vendor refused to have carpets lifted anywhere. After moving in we discovered the whole of the ground floor had truly rotten joists and was being supported on "pit prop" type things with large plywood areas too.

We had to have the whole lot replaced with new joists and new floorboards.

 

[AMc]

The current owner has undertaken a general refurbishment of the building and a specific enquiry should be made as to whether timber lintels were exposed for examination and treated or repaired as necessary.

That sounds to me like a question your solicitor needs to put in writing to their solicitor (I am not a lawyer). If they did expose, examine and repair then there will be receipts and possibly a guaranty. If they didn't then they need to say so and why. You need to know the extent of the refurbishment - it could have been a quick patch and paint or back to the walls and start from scratch.

We are particularly concerned with the possible risk of dry rot affecting the timber lintels and extending to other elements of construction.

Ring the surveyor and ask why they are 'particularly concerned' - there may be evidence of a previous problem, the owner may have mentioned treatment etc. that doesn't sound like boilerplate text to me.

I would also highlight any other sections of the survey you don't understand or want clarification on call the surveyor to talk through the list. The will verbally tell you things they won't put in writing. They will err on the side of caution and suggest the worst case scenario as they're unlikely to be sued if something doesn't fall down but might be if it does. Don't be afraid to ask them to explain more than once if you don't understand - its really important that you get the benefit of their experience and fully understand the risks before you sink your money into a house that someone else has already 'refurbished'.

Good luck and keep posting questions if you need to.

 

[Penners]

I second what Craig and MdB have said above. The surveyor is making sure that he's covered every possible problem that might arise, in order to avoid the risk of being sued at some stage in the future.

Buying a period property always carries an element of risk. Surveyors don't have X-ray vision, so it's impossible for you to be alerted to every single existing problem. All the surveyor can do, therefore, is tell you where the risks lie. It's then up to you to decide whether you're prepared to accept them.

But I add my voice to the above suggestion. See what your surveyor is prepared to say to you "off the record". You may get a clearer idea of how concerned he really is.

 

[Lime]

Don't believe all the rubbish you are told about dry rot.
It is not common except where water is present.

 

[michael]

I live in an old Baptist chapel and about three years after moving in I discovered that at least 50% of the floor joist ends and the timber plate on which they were resting had rotted in the wall. These joists were holding up the first floor, three sided balcony of the chapel and no doubt people had been walking on them for years in this condition. When I first discovered it, I was horrified and it was only discovered after dismantling a load of under bench panelling, lifting the concealed floorboards and then hoovering out sack full’s of under floor debris
The solution wasn’t so bad. A local builder cut out the affected sections of wall plate and the associated joist ends a meter at a time aided with a couple of acro props and a scaffold board below. New meter long sections of wall plate were inserted back into the wall packed with slate where necessary and new pieces of joist about 600mm long were fixed alongside the existing joists (the sound parts) with coach screws. Obviously one course of bricks had to be shifted along to accommodate the new joist ends and these were set back in the wall with lime About two weeks work moving along a meter at a time. Total bill around £3000.
I think you need to get some estimates for the potential work in case it dose need doing. If its under £5000 and you love the house and you can put up with the disruption for a while then maybe its still worth going for.
My rot was wet rot. Dry rot can be more of a problem. Where are these lintels/joists wall plates? My understanding is that dry rot comes from the ground and normally starts at ground level but I’m no expert.

 

[Flyfisher]

I also agree with the point about surveyors having to cover themselves, so most reports will contains loads of stuff about what they haven't been able to inspect and what problems might be lurking. I would, however, be somewhat suspicious if the owners actively prevented investigation of any areas of the property, such as refusing to lift carpets.

Having said that, one of the big things I've learned over the past two years is that houses can survive a great deal of neglect and decay over many years, yet the necessary repairs need not be too extensive or expensive. You'll be able to see for yourself if things are really bad and if you can't then chances are that they're not.

I agree with Michael's point about getting some estimates and advice for potentially needed work. Most problems are easily fixed by the sensible application of money, or time if you DIY. If you have enough of either then you can cover the risk of potential problems. If you don't have enough then reduce the offer price until you do, or be prepared to accept more risk.

As a builder once told me; "there's nothing we can't do - we can put a man on the moon if you've got enough money".

 

[Gemma]

Thanks to all who replied, you've been very helpful!

AMc, we're wondering if it was a 'quick patch and paint' as you mentioned.
I think we'll get in touch with the surveyor and ask for more details regarding his 'concerns'.

Michael, the lintels/joists wall plates are on the first and second floors. What follows is copied from the survey report:

“Carpeting was pulled back in isolated areas to reveal tongue and groove soft wood timber boarding.  It was impossible to lift boarding where the material has not previously been cut.  Part of the floor structure has been re-covered in a tongue and grooved chipboard and again it is impossible to investigate this area further.
 
There is clearly a concern that tongue and grooved chipboard has now been used to replace existing timber.  It is logical to suggest that the tongue and grooved chipboard was provided due to decay problems of the original material. 
 
We are concerned that there may be a decay problem to the suspended timber first and second floors.  It is likely that this is associated with penetrating dampness around the window openings, the most vulnerable areas being the dormer windows at second floor level and the bay windows at first floor level.
 
Embedded timber such as wall plates, joist ends and lintels have not been inspected due to lack of access.  Ideally, further more detailed examination should be undertaken to identify condition of timber and the full extent, if any, of decay which may be present.”

Thanks again,
Gemma

 

[michael]

My builder must know Fly fishers builder because he came out with a similar saying:- “There’s no such thing as problems just solutions” it’s a philosophy you have to adopt with old buildings.
I think you mentioned earlier that the surveyor suspected dry rot on the lintels. I would seek advice from those on this forum who know more about this than me. From your description or the surveyors description of the problems (timber replacements on the first and second floors) with no mention of replacements on the ground floor, it sounds to me like wet rot and not dry rot i.e. water/damp getting in through the exterior wall at the upper levels rather than water rising from the ground. As I said, I’m pretty sure dry rot comes up from the ground and not from the air so I would have expected the ground floor to be affected before the first and second floors if dry rot was the problem but this is pure guess work on my part. Ask the experts. If it is wet rot then the solutions and material replacements should be more managable than the latter.

 

[Penners]

As a builder once told me; "there's nothing we can't do - we can put a man on the moon if you've got enough money".

Your builder made very subtle use of personal pronouns, there. We can do anything... if you've got enough money!

 

[Flyfisher]

Indeed. And needless to say, I'm not engaged in any spaceflight endeavours at the present time - the scaffolding is the highest altitude I've managed to reach recently.

 

[Penners]

Pity. They've been having a few problems during this bit of property renovation.

Your skills might have come in handy.

 

[Flyfisher]

Well, I have been known to lose tools around the place . . .

 

[Schoolmarm]

And I am pretty sure dry rot needs fresh water, not ground water to develop- so it rarely ever comes from the ground up, usually from guttering, downpipes and pipe leaks.
Is there a downpipe or drain outside that area or a bathroom nearby your prospective house?

 

[Gemma]

Schoolmarm, I believe the surveyor is concerned about possible dry rot in the lintels because of penetrating dampness. The following is extracted from the survey report:

“Timber lintels are vulnerable for potential decay problems associated with penetrating dampness.  We are concerned that the condition of the lintels may prove to be poor due to the level of penetrating dampness occurring to the dormer and bay windows at both second and first floor level.
 
It is not possible to confirm the extent of possible decay until such time as areas are laid open for more detailed examination.” 


“The external walls are in a relatively exposed location and as a consequence there is evidence of quite a high level of penetrating dampness.  The penetrating dampness will be associated with the use of a solid masonry wall without a cavity.
 
Some of the penetrating dampness problems may be slightly worsened by the fact that the render has cracked slightly, particularly in the areas of the cills below the windows, but also in isolated areas elsewhere, particularly we believe associated with the removal of original cast iron gutters and down pipes.”

Thanks for your input,
Gemma

 

[Moo]

the render has cracked slightly particularly in the areas of the cills below the windows, but also in isolated areas elsewhere, particularly we believe associated with the removal of original cast iron gutters and down pipes.”

New/old render? Cement/lime?

Little grey cells will be stirring all over PPUK