lime woes of a builder

[Inspector John]

Last year I did a 2 day course on lime. I didn't realise that lime came in different strengths (up to cement itself)
I now understand why it's better to use lime rather that cement on certain types of construction.
However I can understand why we builders use cement in cases like this bad weather.
Where you have to wait for a window of opportunity to use lime and the long length of time it takes for lime to set and the worry of the lime dying due to low temps & frost.
I'm on a external rendering job in Gloucestershire and although I've put a dubbing coat on It's been nearly 2 months since then and although I like the merits of lime mortar I find it a real headache worrying about whether the dubbing will blow off as opposed to cement render where the worry would be movement and cracking.
It would be good in the future if I could get some internal work ready for the winter months but it never works out that way
I would have finished the job by now if I used cement but I also know the job would not be right
With the market as it is for builders is not improving I'm getting to the point where I may call it a day and take up something else or leave this islands altogether

 

[kevmiles1]

My company is having the same problem at the moment with inside work in winter and I know of other lime companies established many years the same as mine that are also finding it hard at the moment, due to the recession and the failing house market. But dont despair things will get better and when they do there is a lot of call for us lime specialists as there arent that many of us about .
I assume you know that hessian is brilliant at protecting lime from freezing, and will protect it well enough to dry succesfully upto about 4degrees wouldnt recommend it when it has been as cold as it has been recently tho.

 

[MdB]

Lime has its advantages but it also has plenty of disadvantages too.

Apart from its eco advantages (less energy goes into its manufacture) I can't see why anybody would want to use lime for a modern construction using modern construction methods (unless time and money are no object). However, equally I can't see why anybody would want to use cement on an old construction produced using old construction methods. Mixing old with new just introduces too many problems as many people have seen.

 

[Inspector John]

Hi Kev
Yes I considered using Hessian, but at first it was the amount of rain we all had day after day of heavy rain then the forecast of a mild winter which was a similar forecast to the supposed BBQ summer that got waylaid.
In the end I fixed polythene sheeting to the facia and over the scaffolding but could not completely cover the wall due to some obstacles in the way and the walls position to keep the wind and rain off, wind being another nuisance because of the lime drying out
I considered using a heater under cover but was afraid of the render drying out as well, unless I stood under there for a week or more with a water sprayer just seems impossible
I've read on a builders forum that many builders are facing the wall due to this recession

(Thanks Banks for the mess. I know the buck stops with me but I seriously want to kick some bottom I suppose the next best thing to kick is this government out but what will we have next??? Speakers corner soap box rant over! )

Too many builders chasing too fewer leads One job In Bristol they've had 15 builders quoting for one extension
I'm not usually a grump and I take the rough with the smooth but this recession is much worse than the last one (well it feels like it) and if work don't come in soon Well God only knows
Regards
Hope it does pick up soon...

 

[Inspector John]

Lime has its advantages but it also has plenty of disadvantages too.

Apart from its eco advantages (less energy goes into its manufacture) I can't see why anybody would want to use lime for a modern construction using modern construction methods (unless time and money are no object). However, equally I can't see why anybody would want to use cement on an old construction produced using old construction methods. Mixing old with new just introduces too many problems as many people have seen.

I know what you're saying The two technologies don't mix very well
I do inform home owners with period properties of the benefits of "lime" as opposed to opc. I'm a convert to the traditional methods of construction,
but unless there are jobs inside, or works where lime is not involved it's a difficult problem economically for any specialist and it may well be wrong to use cement but sometimes needs must and tradition goes.
Saying that I think I would loose my house to the bank rather than compromise my principles
I could never in a million years give false advice.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh, I'm so sorry to read that - I do wish I had a big pot of money and could get you to come and limeify our house!

The banking crisis hit us too otherwise it would have been possible.

 

[Inspector John]

Oh, I'm so sorry to read that - I do wish I had a big pot of money and could get you to come and limeify our house!

The banking crisis hit us too otherwise it would have been possible.

Thanks for that JoceAndChris. Hope it gets better for you as well...You never know I could be the euro lotto winner this week. What size pot do you have?

As I said I'm not usually a grump! I'm of the "Stop whinging, pick youself up and start over again brigade" and lucky & grateful enough to be living "here" rather than Haiti
(although sometimes I wonder If it not better to start learning French) :|

 

[Nigel Watts]

For amateurs I would say that lime is much easier to use than gypsum for interior work. A tub of lime putty or premixed plaster lasts more or less for ever without going off so long as it is kept wet, you have more time to work it when applying it and the fact that you need to wait a week or so between coats fits in admirably with the weedend cycle.

I must have lime plasterered about twenty square meters of my living room walls. I got it flat, through the use of spots and screeds, although I have to admit that my finish coat was not as smooth and polished as a pro's would have been. Since I later papered it (after a suitable number of months of drying out) this was not a serious issue.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh, I'm so sorry to read that - I do wish I had a big pot of money and could get you to come and limeify our house!

The banking crisis hit us too otherwise it would have been possible.

Thanks for that JoceAndChris. Hope it gets better for you as well...

Thank you for that - actually things picked up most marvellously for us towards the end of last year- but we're still paying back debts accrued in 2008 when the company that Chris was working for folded and defaulted on half the year's salary, right after the previous company he'd been working for folded and didn't pay him for several months' work, and unfortunately right at the period of our move. :roll:

I do think things are looking up in general and I hope this slackness of work for you will change ASAP.

I must have lime plasterered about twenty square meters of my living room walls.

Is there no end to your talents???

 

[Inspector John]

For amateurs I would say that lime is much easier to use than gypsum for interior work. A tub of lime putty or premixed plaster lasts more or less for ever without going off so long as it is kept wet, you have more time to work it when applying it and the fact that you need to wait a week or so between coats fits in admirably with the weedend cycle.

I must have lime plasterered about twenty square meters of my living room walls. I got it flat, through the use of spots and screeds, although I have to admit that my finish coat was not as smooth and polished as a pro's would have been. Since I later papered it (after a suitable number of months of drying out) this was not a serious issue.

I think is brilliant! For one thing I don't have to worry about the lime going off in the mixer. I can mix batches, days, weeks in advance and not worry about it setting
Also as you say it excellent for beginners. That how I first learnt as a bricklayer laying bricks and rendering using lime mortar. End of the day knock your work down clean up the bricks put the lime back in the mill and next day re-use and building a something else

Use a derby or a straight edge to level off your work and don't play with it

Practice makes... but not too much or you'll overkill

 

[Inspector John]

Oh, I'm so sorry to read that - I do wish I had a big pot of money and could get you to come and limeify our house!

The banking crisis hit us too otherwise it would have been possible.

Thanks for that JoceAndChris. Hope it gets better for you as well...

Thank you for that - actually things picked up most marvellously for us towards the end of last year- but we're still paying back debts accrued in 2008 when the company that Chris was working for folded and defaulted on half the year's salary, right after the previous company he'd been working for folded and didn't pay him for several months' work, and unfortunately right at the period of our move. :roll:

I do think things are looking up in general and I hope this slackness of work for you will change ASAP.

Well it is the worse time of the year plus the bad weather :| Cheers

 

[kevmiles1]

Hi limebuilder
I am not normally a grump either but i think you are right this recession has been a bad for one for many types of companies but especially builders, think even worse for specialists like myself who only work on period and listed properties. I know loads of other companies that are struggling.
I guess we just have to hope it picks up, only need a couple of jobs and then at least can get back to working again, I am going stir crazy being stuck in all day everyday.
Keep in touch maybe we might be able to help each other out, we do work all over the country normally so who knows might be able to put something your way or vice versa.
Good Luck

 

[Nigel Watts]

For one thing I don't have to worry about the lime going off in the mixer. I can mix batches, days, weeks in advance and not worry about it setting

Figuring that I was saving a heap of money on labour cost, and being an unfit middle-aged office worker, I went for the easy option and ordered a pallet load of tubs of pre-mixed paster from the excellent Mike Wye down in the West Country. I now keep a tub of lime putty, some sand and some hair for making small batches for repairs. This avoided the messy and back-breaking business of mixing the stuff myself, or of having to borrow a cement mixer, or of having to store powdered lime.

Use a derby or a straight edge to level off your work and don't play with it

I did this for the backing coats, combined with some circular action using a cross-grained float, but tried to lay and polish my final finish coat (of two) with only a steel float, with acceptable but not great results.

 

[philpjuk100]

Lime! bad weather! no problem,Dr T. Pridgin Teale says in his book "dangers to health" (1878) all you have to do is light fires against it! phil.

 

[HeatherJ]

Please Gentlemen of the Trades - Come to Toronto!!!!! WE NEED CONSTRUCTION TRADES!

I can't get a trade to look and quote on a job, never mind actually agree to do it. The foot is definitely on the other foot here!
I have just managed to find the only mason who uses lime mortar in the entire region (pop. = 5.5 million). He has agreed to work on our foundation because he was impressed I could "talk lime" with him - and that is thanks to lurking here. However, he is busy all winter working on a church restoration and might get to me by March for the inside work on the basement and he'll get back to me at some stage to complete the outside work. (Incidentally he is headed to the UK next year to take a course in lime at Weymouth(?) so I lose even him in due course.
I called 5 other builders to look at sistering the cracked joist which is the basic problem and getting it supported properly on the to-be-fixed basement wall - three never turned up when they said they would. One wanted to support the cracked joint by building a partition wall of 4 by 2's with no footings and only agreed to consider this "small job" if (a) he could finishing that end of the basement and making a laundry (which is not part of the scope of work) and (b) we wouldn't ask the building inspector to inspect his work. The last one looked at the job, talked a lot and wanted us to sign on the dotted line that night without mentioning a price - until we refused to sign until we got a second quote and he turned and walked out of the house without another word.
The housing market is hot here - and the construction trades are turning away work. They all work on basements and interior renovations in the winter and outside work once the snow melt dries up in late April through until late Oct./Nov. I have a PhD - but I am seriously thinking of jacking my lectureship in and doing a plumbing course as plumbers just print money here.
The weather isn't that bad in Toronto, but if you don't fancy it - they are pretty short in Vancouver and Victoria BC (on the west coast) too and the weather is comparable with the UK there... Please consider a stop over in Toronto though and take a look at a crack in an unsupported hemlock joist in a 1920's brick house.
Heather

 

[kevmiles1]

Hi Heather
Sorry you are having trouble finding a specialist, if there was a way i would gladly come and do the work for you, could use a holiday

 

[Inspector John]

Hi limebuilder
I am not normally a grump either but i think you are right this recession has been a bad for one for many types of companies but especially builders, think even worse for specialists like myself who only work on period and listed properties. I know loads of other companies that are struggling.
I guess we just have to hope it picks up, only need a couple of jobs and then at least can get back to working again, I am going stir crazy being stuck in all day everyday.
Keep in touch maybe we might be able to help each other out, we do work all over the country normally so who knows might be able to put something your way or vice versa.
Good Luck

Good luck to you too Kev If anythng comes up I'll let you know

Toronto here I come :wink:

 

[Inspector John]

For one thing I don't have to worry about the lime going off in the mixer. I can mix batches, days, weeks in advance and not worry about it setting

Figuring that I was saving a heap of money on labour cost, and being an unfit middle-aged office worker, I went for the easy option and ordered a pallet load of tubs of pre-mixed paster from the excellent Mike Wye down in the West Country. I now keep a tub of lime putty, some sand and some hair for making small batches for repairs. This avoided the messy and back-breaking business of mixing the stuff myself, or of having to borrow a cement mixer, or of having to store powdered lime.

Use a derby or a straight edge to level off your work and don't play with it

I did this for the backing coats, combined with some circular action using a cross-grained float, but tried to lay and polish my final finish coat (of two) with only a steel float, with acceptable but not great results.

It's a funny ole thing "plastering". Even with my experience sometimes it goes on a treat and other times it a pig of a job. It's either to much suction or not enough or you (for some unknown reason) can't get it right and I'm not satisfied with the finish. So I leave it and go do something else, come back on it the next day, then it works out fine, there's no problems and you wonder what the fuss was about... Peculiar!

 

[Inspector John]

Please Gentlemen of the Trades - Come to Toronto!!!!! WE NEED CONSTRUCTION TRADES!

I can't get a trade to look and quote on a job, never mind actually agree to do it. The foot is definitely on the other foot here!
I have just managed to find the only mason who uses lime mortar in the entire region (pop. = 5.5 million). He has agreed to work on our foundation because he was impressed I could "talk lime" with him - and that is thanks to lurking here. However, he is busy all winter working on a church restoration and might get to me by March for the inside work on the basement and he'll get back to me at some stage to complete the outside work. (Incidentally he is headed to the UK next year to take a course in lime at Weymouth(?) so I lose even him in due course.
I called 5 other builders to look at sistering the cracked joist which is the basic problem and getting it supported properly on the to-be-fixed basement wall - three never turned up when they said they would. One wanted to support the cracked joint by building a partition wall of 4 by 2's with no footings and only agreed to consider this "small job" if (a) he could finishing that end of the basement and making a laundry (which is not part of the scope of work) and (b) we wouldn't ask the building inspector to inspect his work. The last one looked at the job, talked a lot and wanted us to sign on the dotted line that night without mentioning a price - until we refused to sign until we got a second quote and he turned and walked out of the house without another word.
The housing market is hot here - and the construction trades are turning away work. They all work on basements and interior renovations in the winter and outside work once the snow melt dries up in late April through until late Oct./Nov. I have a PhD - but I am seriously thinking of jacking my lectureship in and doing a plumbing course as plumbers just print money here.
The weather isn't that bad in Toronto, but if you don't fancy it - they are pretty short in Vancouver and Victoria BC (on the west coast) too and the weather is comparable with the UK there... Please consider a stop over in Toronto though and take a look at a crack in an unsupported hemlock joist in a 1920's brick house.
Heather

If there's plenty of work out there I'm willing to travel over I Might even consider staying.
Although I don't think your Government would allow if they are anything like the Aussies :wink:

 

[HeatherJ]

Just checked - the skilled worker track is open to carpenters, electricians and plumbers.... http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who-instructions.asp#list

Heather