Lime plaster possible for novice to do?

[Crymac]

Hi there
I've just stumbled upon this forum but feel it's going to be an excellent resource for us! I see there are already various posts about lime plaster but I'm wondering if anyone's able to provide any advice for our situation.

We have a pre 1850's cottage in Yorkshire. Solid wall construction (Yorkshire stone) that has been abused with cement and gypsum plaster.

Our intention is to remove the cement and gypsum plaster from the internal walls and replace with a lime based plaster product. We hope this will reduce our damp issues and flaky paint.

We got quoted in the region of £3k for 1 elevation of a room (approx 4m wide x 2.5m height, excluding door and large sash window. I'm not sure if these guys overpriced so they didn't get the job but I'm having a hard time finding anyone else who has genuine experience with lime plaster to draw a comparison. I was expecting less than a grand - is this an unrealistic expectation?!

We would be willing to do it ourselves however as novices at such things not sure if this is something we are able to do ourselves appropriately. We have questions like: 'will the window just fall out if we remove the plaster around it' and 'what tools should we use'... Of course we can read up but unsure if this may be a little ambitious.

I think what I'm asking is: is this something a novice can take on and complete properly (with appropriate research), or is this best left to the professionals?

We were thinking we could remove and put on the first layer, then leave the top skim to a regular plasterer. Any thoughts/opinions/advice or resources would be very welcome!

Many thanks!

 

[Keith Bowman]

Others with more knowledge and experience will no doubt reply, but my initial thought is that it depends how important flat walls are to you! Getting lime plaster to stick to the wall is not difficult - certainly no harder than getting icing to stick to a cake, and the great thing about lime is that it doesn't set in the bucket before you can use it like gypsum. Getting the final coat dead flat is less easy, at least I find it so, but I kid myself that the hollows and bumps look more authentic.

Best thing to do is to buy some lime and have a go on a small wall somewhere out of sight - inside a walk-in cupboard or larder for example.

Good luck with it.

 

[Keith Bowman]

PS Look at some of the videos by Mike Wye for clues on how to do it and what tools to use. AND £3k seems way over the top. And yet another thing, if the plaster is all that is holding the windows in, you have bigger problems than a bit of flaky paint

 

[Feltwell]

It is perfectly possible for a novice to do I'd say. The nice thing about lime is as Keith says you can take your time, unlike gypsum which goes off quickly and has to be finished in a short space of time. Why not book yourself on a lime course? Not sure about Yorkshire, but Ty Mawr (in Wales, unsurprisingly! Powys, to be more precise) and Mike Wye (Devon) both do courses that are well regarded, and Google will give you details of others.

 

[MatthewC]

Others with more knowledge and experience will no doubt reply, but my initial thought is that it depends how important flat walls are to you! Getting lime plaster to stick to the wall is not difficult - certainly no harder than getting icing to stick to a cake, and the great thing about lime is that it doesn't set in the bucket before you can use it like gypsum. Getting the final coat dead flat is less easy, at least I find it so, but I kid myself that the hollows and bumps look more authentic.

Best thing to do is to buy some lime and have a go on a small wall somewhere out of sight - inside a walk-in cupboard or larder for example.

Good luck with it.

+1

The other thing is how long it takes - my professional plasterer took ages doing my house in lime (early 2011) and I know if I had done it myself I'd probably still be doing it! You don't mention the ceiling so I assume that's OK - if you have a lath ceiling then it requires some considerable stamina in your right arm to do the whole thing. As Keith says, have a go on a small bit somewhere and as others have said, do a one day course - I did the Mike Wye one.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I was a novice, and completely lime plastered a room. However i am quite handy and have been doing craft type hobbies for a long time so I wasn't too out of my comfort zone. Your window won't fall out, but lime plastering is really hard work. i can go into more detail if you like, but another option is to find an old fashioned plasterer who is happy doing solid plastering in hardwall or browning (gypsum products) and ask him/her if they would be happy using lime. i say this as all the "restoration" specialists I have had work on my house were not very good, and i think they were just filling a nice in the market, but I have found a very good conventional plasterer who is happy using gypsum and cement render so to a person like that, lime should be a doddle!

 

[bennoa1]

A course if probably a good idea to build your confidence, especially if you have a lot to do as you'll save a fortune. I've used hemp plaster in our bathroom which is pretty easy to use but you do end up with a textured finish, although I'm going to put a final flatter coat without the hemp on our bedroom walls to match some existing original plaster. The lath working isn't that bad but I didn't do a ceiling but you'll certainly build up your muscles. You can get premixed lime and you'll need a mixer - I've got a paddle mixer like this one:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/tecmix-tmx-pro-1250-1220w-mixer-drill-230v/80556
which was about £100 and mix it in smaller quantities in a large bucket inside the room. If its onto bare brick you'll probably need to damp it down and build the layers - it will take longer to dry than gypsum. The lime hemp plaster can be put on in thick layers which appealed (up to 50mm) and it has insulation benefits. I've got to do the whole property (2,300 sq ft) so will be doing the bulk, if not all, myself.

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

A key difference as compared to gypsum/cement is the extent to which the background needs to be wetted.

Then while you're working the coat, that needs to be constantly misted.

Watched a lime plasterer working on a cottage being restored, he was doing three-coat work that was far too flat for my taste, anyway he had a pump-up sprayer and was using it constantly.

There are four stages to plastering:
I can get it to stick to the wall.
I can get it flat enough to paint with flatcoat
I can get it flat enough to wallpaper
I can get it flat enough to paint with sheen paint and subject it to oblique light

It sounds as if you could need some practice to get to stage 2.

Also bear in mind that plastering a whole room needs bulk materials and mixing facilities, and is very tiring. I've never done more than a few square feet.

As has been said, go on a course, then practice. At the very least, you'll then know how it should be done, and be in a better position to judge the competence of anyone who claims they can do it. Incompetent tradesmen are not confined to Birmingham :?

And while you've got the plaster off, you might think about wiring in some wall lights. Nothing quite as cosy as well-chosen wall lights. You can wire plenty of points in even if you don't use them all.

Good luck with your cottage.

Ivor

 

[skier-hughes]

http://www.syec.co.uk/index.php used to do lime plastering courses, their site appears a bit out of date, so perhaps give them a call. There are also lots of lime plasterers in Derbyshire, not sure how good or availability or price, but when I was looking I found a few that way.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'd support the above replies , though I suppose a lot depends on personal DIY inclinations.

I would suggest, however, that another angle to such things is to consider what could go wrong if an inexperienced DIYer tries their hand (and after all, without trying, how will they ever gain experience and skill?).

So, at one end of the scale, what about DIY gas works? Well, illegal for a start, and a risk of fire, explosion and death - so definitely best not to chance such things unless you really know what you're doing and are GAS Safe registered.

But what harm could DIY lime plastering lead to? The very act of removing cement and/or gypsum plaster in preparation will likely do the house a favour, and even badly applied lumpy/bumpy plaster is unlikely to cause any harm, plus it is quite easily reversible or, as mentioned above, could be given the final coat by a professional if desired, which should significantly reduce the cost without compromising the end result. And no, your windows won't fall out if the existing plaster is removed because they will be - or should be - fixed through the frame into the structure of the wall, not the decorative plaster covering.

So, read up, watch some instructional videos and then have a go in a small area at first. You'll learn loads by doing so and the worst case is that you'll waste a small amount of money on materials and a weekend of your time before deciding to pay someone else to do it for you. But I reckon the more likely case is that you'll quickly get the hang of it and will be able to really achieve something.

 

[bennoa1]

and don't forget the breathable paint, otherwise you'll undo all the good work putting the lime plaster on. We've use earthborn clay paint which is widely available at a sensible (ish) price. It has a warm feeling and is tactile - good choice of colours too.

 

[skier-hughes]

and don't forget if you remove a certain percentage of plaster you need to then insulate the walls............. errrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmm oooooooooppppps

 

[mims&pip]

and don't forget if you remove a certain percentage of plaster you need to then insulate the walls............. errrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmm oooooooooppppps

.....mmmmm, yes, something we *forgot* to do at our last house. Fortunately our buyers' surveyor failed to spot this omission :roll:

Pip has done some lime plastering quite successfully, but he is a skilled DIYer (and veteran of six restoration projects ) as well as having been taught to plaster by an old-school tradesman when he was engaged to the old chap's granddaughter (before we met :wink: ).....I'd definitely agree that it's a skill worth learning, but obviously some are better suited to being hands on when it comes to restoring period properties than others. Despite until fairly recently being in the design industry, Pip is not afraid to get his hands dirty!

 

[skier-hughes]

I found the most useful thing about my course, watching and having a go when our lime plasterers were in, was getting to feel the right consistency of the lime when it was ready to go on the wall. Having sorted that, it was much easier to plaster, but I found I'm not that great at it, much more practise will help, and it is HARD work.

 

[Keith Bowman]

and don't forget if you remove a certain percentage of plaster you need to then insulate the walls............. errrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmm oooooooooppppps

Anglia Lime have sent out a flier to say they have developed an insulating lime plaster. I know no more than that, but it might be worth investigating.

 

[noj]

and don't forget if you remove a certain percentage of plaster you need to then insulate the walls............. errrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmm oooooooooppppps

Since it's got to be over 25% (of external wall) that's changed at any one time before the work comes into the realm of the building control insulation regs I guess it depends on how quickly you can plaster... :wink:

There doesn't appear to be a definition of what constitutes an unacceptable series of repairs

 

[bennoa1]

The percentage is more applicable to newer properties and the CO will generally win out. Insulation should be a consideration but as you are in the main not allowed to change to double glazing I cant see how complying with building reg standards will help that much. I've put some insulation on the external walls (internally) where possible but I'm not doing it everywhere. In these area I'm putting a thicker (about 40mm) skim of lime hemp plaster in place of the 5mm thick haired lime which is all loose. LBC submitted with no condition of any percentages of plaster removal, a lot of it is gypsum anyway, so I guess they're glad I'm removing it and replacing with lime.

 

[88v8]

We had one wall of the dining room lime-plastered, first coat contained hemp which supposedly has some insulating properties.

Going back to the OP, just a heads-up in case one is inexperienced, removing large quantities of old plaster can create an incredible amount of abrasive dust which left to itself seeps all around the house .
Builders' rubbish sacks, a Henry with a fresh bag, window open, all other windows in the house shut, take all your tools in including a stiff brush to clean the walls of dust, then get t'other half to seal you into the room by covering the door jambs with masking tape and put a damp towel along the door bottom. That should prevent the dust from spreading.
Oh, and a mask will help your lungs.
Don't forget the Kitkats.

And before you start chiselling, check with a detector that the wiring is where you think it is, and nowhere else. We had a nice bang! and shower of sparks from an unexpected wiring discovery whilst removing cement pointing in another room.

Ivor

 

[Crymac]

Thank you so much for all your replies!! They are all so useful and have given us loads to think about. Insulating is an interesting point. We were thinking of using an insulating plaster product (Lime Green ultra was recommended to us but I will take a look at others as suggested). We dont have to worry about the ceiling thankfully, or at least it's not one of our priorities. It's good to know the windows will stay it!! Ill have a look into courses but we do only have a relatively small area so tempted to heed the advice of what's the worst that can happen and just give it a go -id be interested in a course but just thinking it might be expensive... i will investigate!!

I really appreciate everyones input - thankyou!

 

[Keithj]

I've got a little "idiot's guide" given to me by the local (Suffolk) lime supplier. It gives the basics of what to do and not to do. The "brains" of the firm that repaired our house gave me a short tutorial (best part of 5 years ago) which matched pretty closely.

I don't tackle big jobs (there's an outstanding local firm that I use), but for filling odd bits and the shrinkage cracks around the green oak, it's worked very well. The key instruction was "make sure you've brushed out the loose stuff, make sure the area is wet enough, push the lime in hard, cover it and keep it damp for a week or so."