Leak from mains water pipe

[JanieB]

At last after 12 years since the original plans were drawn up, my house is being renovated starting with rebuilding the kitchen extension. The work started last Monday with the digging up of the old concrete floor of my conservatory. The removal of the concrete went further out as the building inspector's preferred option was to move the inspection lid for the soil pipe to one side of the new extension. It proved to be a non-starter as there were too many other services all in the same place, so I'm going to have to have a sealed lid in the kitchen.

However, the excavations found a leak from the main water pipe that serves 4 houses in the terrace (once 5 but 2 have been combined into 1). I called Thames Water who insisted there was no leak as there was no movement on their meter in the pavement. I pointed out that my (late) neighbour had called them out several times over the years as she was positive there was a leak. To add to this, this time he could actually see that the pipe was leaking. The meter was installed about 12 years ago as a direct result of my neighbours reports.

He asked if any of my neighbours could be using any water but they were all at work. So he turned on some taps in the house and the meter still didn't move. He changed the meter, turned off all the taps and well, what do you know, the old meter was faulty. We have a leak, and not the one we can see, that is losing water at 2 litres an hour. :shock:

This has been going on for at least 15 years, not that I think the leak has been that bad for all that time. A bonus is that they are treating it as an emergency and regard it as their responsibility as their meter was faulty.

They'll be back tomorrow to fix it. It probably means digging up the ginnel but at least myself and my immediate neighbour may have dry houses and be able to replaster the walls without them blowing.

 

[skier-hughes]

It's illegal to share a water supply after a meter, so I wonder why they aren't giving you all meters?
Good news on the leak being fixed though!

 

[JanieB]

It may be illegal now but it wasn't when the mains were originally installed. In the 20 years that I've lived here my house has changed owner once when the title was transferred to me when my other half died, next door has been sold 2x and next door but one once. The other one (once 2 cottages) has remained in the same ownership. Each time Thames Water have attempted to install a meter on whichever house has changed title but have found that they can't as we have one water supply for all of us.

As a part of my renovations I intend to install a separate stopcock in the house in order that I can have a meter. It will save me a lot of money as at the moment my water rates are based on the rateable value of my house. As a widow living alone I'm not using anywhere near the amount of water I'm paying for.

 

[Penners]

...after 12 years since the original plans were drawn up, my house is being renovated

Well, I must respectfully doff my cap to the most impressive example of prevarication that I have yet to encounter. Have you kept a record of the number of Kit-Kats and cuppas that have been consumed during this extended period of cogitation?

 

[skier-hughes]

We went through this when we bought our house. Being the farmhouse, there were plenty of supplies from the main pipe coming into the farm, including two other properties. When the farmer wanted to install a meter, all hell broke loose as we all had to have one fitted.
They wouldn't allow one meter to several properties, regardless of how long it had been like that.
I'm surprised Thames have done that.
Unless Severn Trent were over egging the illegality of our situation

 

[Keithj]

One option you may have, which we used to great effect in the Norfolk hideaway.

We were on "rateable value" for water (or whatever they call it). It was seriously expensive. Friends round the corner on a meter were paying less than a quarter of what we were. So we asked the board to fit a meter. The man came, pronounced it impossible (because of the way the pipes ran, the size of the hole in the floor where the stopcock was, etc) and went away.

So I said "I didn't ask if you could fit a meter. I asked you to do so. You have no option if the customer asks for one." (Yes, all right, I can be a stroppy wotsit). They explained that it would cost them over £2,000 to fit a meter and they weren't prepared to do that.

OK, I said, assess me as if we had a meter. After some to-and-fro, that's what they agreed to do. We had to haggle a bit, but got it down to a bit less than paid by our friends over the road. It was a bit like an Arab bazaar, but all I said when their offer wasn't to my liking was "OK, we'll have a meter."

We let the place to a tenant when we moved from noisy Essex to idyllic Suffolk - he's just got round to starting negotiations for "assessed metered charge", with our full blessing to have them fit a meter if necessary.

 

[MatthewC]

Thames Water and meters? Let me tell my story about them.

During the work on my house I asked for a meter and, after due survey, they fitted one in the pavement in 2011. I paid a sensible figure (like £90 for six months) twice, and then the third bill was almost £300 for six months! I made an astute (and correct) assessment that this was due to the neighbouring house being occupied for the previous six months, when it had been empty before that. Eventually I got them to come and look at it, and they agreed that the meter served two properties. Next thing I heard was a thick envelope cancelling the bills for the £180, and saying that I now owed them for two whole years at the standard rate (~£430/yr) so I owed them £860-£180 = £680! So I said very loudly "You cannot refund perfectly good bills that I have paid and then bill me a larger sum in retrospect!"

There followed a long argument over many phone calls - someone offered me the "reduced rate" of ONLY £325/yr and I said no, I wanted to pay metered bills of less than £200/yr. So they said that I could have an internal meter but the dimensions they gave would take up the entire under sink space. I said no, give me a meter and let my plumber fit it, and although they said no to that, somehow that is what happened. Then we had a chat about the cost of the previous six months and somehow agreed a very low figure which I reckon meant that I could pay my plumber and the whole episode cost me nothing (apart from the stress of the phone calls).

The saga went on for 16 weeks - I learned to always keep a good note of such calls. I also learned that they have a department called "Escalations", and the trick is to say that you "want to escalate this" as soon as it starts looking difficult. Once I got to them things started to happen - they were the only ones with the nous to realise what an injustice their actions were - I get cross just remembering all that.

 

[JanieB]

...after 12 years since the original plans were drawn up, my house is being renovated

Well, I must respectfully doff my cap to the most impressive example of prevarication that I have yet to encounter. Have you kept a record of the number of Kit-Kats and cuppas that have been consumed during this extended period of cogitation?

It wasn't prevarication, just after the plans were drawn up my OH was diagnosed with leukemia from which he died. I was left with sufficient funds to carry on with the renovations and was also still in full-time employment. My step-daughter decided to take me to court and try and take my house from me and put me in an old peoples home. She didn't win as I could prove that I had been paying the mortgage whilst my OH had been supporting her and her mother. But it cleaned me out and left me in debt which ended up as a CCJ.

My mother and aunty have died in the last couple of years and I was left money by both of them so I can now carry on with the plans myself and my OH made.

 

[Flyfisher]

Interesting stories. I've always assumed that the water companies were trying to encourage households to install meters.

FF junior has a 2-bed apartment in Hertfordshire. Before he had a meter connected the water + sewerage charges were £550, which seemed somewhat extortionate but understandable if my assumption was correct.

After the meter was fitted, a monthly charge of £26 was estimated - already a substantial saving - and after the first year he was substantially in credit, even after a £100 refund.

Given that they gave a guarantee that if the metered charges turned out to be more expensive then he could opt to return to the fixed annual charge, then it was (to use that dreadful phrase) a no-brainer to have a meter fitted.

 

[Feltwell]

Given that they gave a guarantee that if the metered charges turned out to be more expensive then he could opt to return to the fixed annual charge, then it was (to use that dreadful phrase) a no-brainer to have a meter fitted.

No chance of that with Severn Trent . With 5 of us in the house, I'm far from convinced that a meter will make it cheaper. Severn Trent's stance seems to be "fit it & see, but once it's fitted you can't opt out."

 

[Flyfisher]

Interesting. I assumed that was a standard clause and some sort of industry regulation thing. It clearly pays to read the small print carefully!

 

[Feltwell]

It wasn't prevarication, just after the plans were drawn up my OH was diagnosed with leukemia from which he died. I was left with sufficient funds to carry on with the renovations and was also still in full-time employment. My step-daughter decided to take me to court and try and take my house from me and put me in an old peoples home. She didn't win as I could prove that I had been paying the mortgage whilst my OH had been supporting her and her mother. But it cleaned me out and left me in debt which ended up as a CCJ.

My mother and aunty have died in the last couple of years and I was left money by both of them so I can now carry on with the plans myself and my OH made.

I wish you all the very best with your plans - brave of you to carry on, many others would have sold up & moved on.

 

[skier-hughes]

Feltwell, there's only two of us, but we also have a caravan club cl site, last year we had 870 nights worth of extra people, anything from 1 to 7. I also have a large veg plot which I water regularly and our bill is still less than half of our rated bill at the old house.

 

[TheRoost]

Our water company (United Utilities) will fit an outside meter for free if you don't have an internal stopcock, or its in a silly location - our house only had an inline ballvalve that was boxed in a wall, in the corner of the hallway, just above the floor joists. They fitted a meter in the pavement outside the house, and it also has a stopcock in it, operated by a plastic wrench. As you are having the garden dug up it might be worth enquiring if you could have an outside meter for free (only if it suited you better than an internal one, of course!)

We originally had a rated bill of £52/month, the meter brought it down to roughly half that.

 

[Feltwell]

Feltwell, there's only two of us, but we also have a caravan club cl site, last year we had 870 nights worth of extra people, anything from 1 to 7. I also have a large veg plot which I water regularly and our bill is still less than half of our rated bill at the old house.

Interesting. I assumed that was a standard clause and some sort of industry regulation thing. It clearly pays to read the small print carefully!

It does, and in my case I appear to have not read deeply enough.......

Having done a little more investigating, whilst the main Severn Trent website pages on meters mentions nothing about your ability to switch back if the metered charge ends up being above the unmetered charge, thanks to Google I found this on a more obscure part of their website:-

If I have chosen to have a meter fitted do I have the right to go back to an unmetered charge?

You have the right to go back to an unmetered charge if you tell us that you want to. If your meter was fitted from the 1 April 2015 onwards you must do this within 24 months of your meter being installed or within 30 days of your fourth bill. At least two of your bills will be based on an actual meter reading so that you can work out how much water you have used and whether the meter has benefitted you or not.

If your meter was fitted prior to 1 April 2015 you must contact us within 12 months of your meter being installed or within 30 days of receiving your second bill.

Clearly Severn Trent not too keen to draw attention to that, and as they quote it as a "right" I suspect this is industry regulation enforced, not Severn Trent only policy. So thank you FF & Skier-Hughes, I shall see if I can get a meter fitted, I've nothing to lose! The meter installation is free. I *think* though that if you go back to an unmetered charge, they physically leave the meter in place and next owner of the house has to accept it. I'm not planning on moving anywhere for a long time so this doesn't bother me.

Even if you can't have a meter fitted, you can apparently apply to have your water usage assessed. The standard unmetered charge is based on the rateable value of your house. The assessed charge is based on occupancy and other factors, and if they come back with a higher charge than the standard one you can refuse it, so you can't lose.

The sewerage element of your bill should be affected too, if you are on the mains of course, as they base it on the fresh water usage if you are metered or assessed charge.

So I'd say this is worth investigating by nearly everyone on here if they haven't already got a meter, and they live in England or Wales. The rules are different in Scotland apparently, they charge for meter installations. A rare example perhaps of where you're better off in England! (Says the man "looking forward" to potentially 3 lots of University fees - which would be free if we were in Scotland :evil: )

 

[Flyfisher]

That's good news, though somewhat underhand of your water company. Junior's water company (Affinity Water) made this condition quite clear and I think it was printed on every statement - I don't recall having to trawl through their website for the info. And yes, the meter installation was free and placed in the ground outside, so no disruption indoors - though perhaps that depends on the type of property. It will be interesting to know how much you eventually save - good luck!

 

[Keith Bowman]

It does depend where your water main is though: our supply starts at a water main over half a mile away and reaches us via what they call a 'service pipe' the other side of a busy A road and under a couple of B roads. Anglian Water expected us to put up with a meter at the far end of that with all the potential for damage and leaks every time there are any roadworks: and it happens, and each time the surprised looking chap with the JCB says "no-one told us it was there". Apparently the water companies are not obliged to keep records of service pipes....

 

[Flyfisher]

I thought the meter had to be on the property it serves, with the pipe from the meter being the customer's responsibility.

I can't see how the customer could be made responsible for pipe work not on their own land.

 

[Keith Bowman]

I thought the meter had to be on the property it serves, with the pipe from the meter being the customer's responsibility.

I can't see how the customer could be made responsible for pipe work not on their own land.

Not according to Anglian Water's rules anyway: the meter has to be where the "service pipe" leaves the water main. Which, in our case, and that of our neighbours, is half a mile away. The neighbours put up with it and accept the risks; we don't.

 

[Flyfisher]

Perhaps it depends on the local pipe work? We have quite a long lane that is split across two titles. We own both titles but the house title only extends halfway up the lane. I assume the water main runs along the road at the top of the lane but our water meter is installed halfway up the lane on the border of the two titles. We're also with Anglia Water.

Perhaps the rules are really only guidelines, to be followed wherever easily possible?

I still don't understand how a customer could be responsible for the pipe under someone else's land? How would they have a right to dig up their neighbour's land to effect repairs?