LBC double glazed back to single glazed

[Mickey]

Hi All,
We have now received our LBC (which is of course great news) for some works to a rear gable, part of which is the replacement of a 20th century double glazed window no glazing bars, with a more sympathetic double casement two over two. Since the non original window (put in during conversion prior to listing) is double glazed we asked for replacement with slimlite double glazing within glazing bars which matched the only original window we have in the building. LBO is insisting replacement window and even glazing in a replacement modern back door is all single glazed, I'm not sure how to proceed can I enlist the help of Building Control to help me do you think because how can the windows be compliant?

many thanks for any advice.

Mickey

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm not sure if there is a formal way to solve this sort of thing because of the conflicting requirements.

You say you have received LBC and you say you asked for slimlite double glazing - what does the LBC actually specify?

My guess is that the CO has the upper hand because it is a criminal offence to make alterations to a listed building without LBC and if that LBC specifies single glazing then fitting DG instead could be construed as an unauthorised alteration and thus a criminal offence. I'm not a lawyer but I suspect that Building Control cannot force you to commit a criminal offence in order to comply with their regulations, so I doubt they can really help to force your case with the CO.

 

[malcolm]

If you ask building regs inspectors the question they will give you the letter of the law. So it's not useful to ask. You'll probably find when you put in your building regs application they'll be a bit more flexible, possibly accepting secondary glazing and/or an off-set like putting more insulation in your attic.

Secondary should give about the same U values as the slim double glazing - a installer quoted me U values of 2.3 this morning for secondary glazing or around 2.0 with a coating.

 

[Roger H]

As Flyfisher says, your lbc application should say somewhere what windows you have lbc for. It may be that the CO has placed a condition on the decision notice governing window details – if so, this will be used to exert leverage over what you can install. If there are no conditions, and your lbc says dg then the CO has missed his chance and should have piped up earlier.

Personally, if you are replacing poor quality modern dg doors/windows I’d think that you’d have a strong argument for arguing for a slim unit dg (histoglass maybe?). It seems crazy to insist on sg glass in the doors unless the detail being proposed is particularly crude.

It would be a different matter if the windows you were replacing were sg.

The lbc should override the building control officer in most cases, although it is sensible to show the bco how you are meeting energy efficiency goals elsewhere by other means.

 

[paulb33]

Trouble is, slimline DG still has many of the aesthetic drawbacks of standard DG. At the same time, losing the thermal benefits and arguably with a reduced life-span. Personally, I dont think it solves the problem - hence the CO's concern.

Here speaks someone spending a lot of money on single glazed windows for a Grade II Listed home. All that said, I ultimately went single glazed because of the historic context of an architect's former home.

 

[88v8]

Ha! a reversal of the normal situation where one prays-in-aid the CO to fend off the unsympathetic stipulations of Building Control.

I'm contemplating slim dg units with handmade glass to prevent the ghastly and damaging condensation that plagues some of the single-glazing in our intrinsically damp house. But I realise that even with hand-made glass, the aesthetics aren't ideal due to the double reflection.

If you have to have single-glazing, make the most of it and use hand-made glass. In the door, you could use bevel-edge, which looks particularly handsome.
Don't worry about the heat loss. Well fitting curtains, even better with millium linings, will take care of that. The heat loss through a door isn't worth losing sleep over.

After all, you didn't buy the house because of its efficiency, did you? You bought it because it's old and beautiful. Consol yourself with the thought that, as Paul said, the life expectancy of slimline units is not great anyway.

Ivor

 

[Penners]

So far as the window is concerned, you may find that the CO will be more amenable to secondary internal glazing, provided the glazing bars sit sympathetically with those in the primary window. It's worth asking.

As for the part-glazed door (I assume that's what it is), I shouldn't worry too much. The difference in thermal insulation between single and double glazing will probably be nullified by the draughts that come in around a traditional door anyway! Hanging a heavy curtain across the inside of the door reveal will probably be just as, or even more, effective.

 

[MatthewC]

So far as the window is concerned, you may find that the CO will be more amenable to secondary internal glazing, provided the glazing bars sit sympathetically with those in the primary window. It's worth asking.

Surely you don't need to ask to fit secondary glazing? By definition it is meant to be reversible, isn't it? (Certainly mine is) And if it's reversible then I don't think you need LBC.

I learned a long time ago never to ask a question to which you might not want to know the answer! Better to do it and argue the case if needed, than to be refused and then do it anyway.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I learned a long time ago never to ask a question to which you might not want to know the answer! Better to do it and argue the case if needed, than to be refused and then do it anyway.

I read that this is a trademark of successful people. It is much easier to apologise than to ask for permission.

 

[Mickey]

many thanks for all the helpful replies. I was just a bit baffled that we are being asked to replace double glazed with single glazed it is a stipulation of the LBC made by the CO, ordinarily I'd of course be well against DG but same type of converted building, same architect in nearby village had the wholesale replacement of all windows and doors with DG and even gained LBC for a double height aluminium DG atrium type arrangement. It's the inconsistency that gets me. Our windows are at the back and can't be viewed by anyone, realise this is not much of an argument but CO doesn't have to live with the horrendous condensation running down every single window all winter. The windows and door are in the kitchen hence I am not keen on either secondary DG because I wanted ease of opening for ventilation or any kind of curtain arrangement. Oh well single glazed it is then.

Thanks again.

Mickey

 

[paulb33]

It's the inconsistency that gets me. Our windows are at the back and can't be viewed by anyone, realise this is not much of an argument but CO doesn't have to live with the horrendous condensation running down every single window all winter. The windows and door are in the kitchen hence I am not keen on either secondary DG because I wanted ease of opening for ventilation or any kind of curtain arrangement. Oh well single glazed it is then.

This is really quite commonplace. The CO believes this is his/her one chance to get DG out of an historic building. They'd rather refuse your slimlines and live with the bad DG, than accept them and then not get another opportunity to go back to single glazed for 10-15 years (i.e., the life of your new DG unit).

Sometimes CO's are rather more pragmatic, hence the inconsistency.

May I ask why your house is listed?

Paul

 

[Penners]

10-15 years (i.e., the life of your new DG unit).

... if you're extremely lucky.

 

[malcolm]

I would hate to see consistency - that would mean everyone following every rule no questions asked and no exceptions. Rules for us with old buildings conflict somewhat so it would become even more of a nightmare.

Do you currently get condensation on single glazed downstairs windows (apart from the kitchen)? What extraction do you have?

 

[MatthewC]

I learned a long time ago never to ask a question to which you might not want to know the answer! Better to do it and argue the case if needed, than to be refused and then do it anyway.

I read that this is a trademark of successful people. It is much easier to apologise than to ask for permission.

That's not what I meant or said, PP. I learned in the RAF that some people will always err on the side of caution so if you ask them you are likely to get an illogical refusal rather than a considered decision. Then, if you do it, you are disobeying an order as opposed to using your initiative which would have been the case if you hadn't asked the question.

Talking of apologies though, too many people will say "I'm sorry if what I wrote offended you" (for example). I believe that a conditional apology is virtually worthless as it means that you don't really think it matters, when it clearly does to the offended party. That sort of apology might be easy but a proper apology is not.

 

[paulb33]

10-15 years (i.e., the life of your new DG unit).

... if you're extremely lucky.

Quite.

 

[garnett]

Hello all

I have been a CO for 15 years now. You spend the first 5 years saying no. Then you discover the real skill is finding ways to say yes. It is also about helping the applicant to ask the right question. I want to put in a DPC. Tell me why you think you need a DPC? I have had a damp survey which told me it was needed. How much did this damp survey cost? It was free. Did they mention the leaking gutters and missing slates? Then it dawns on them. It is lovely when you get a call six month later thanking you for saving so much money!

I have always tried to apply common sense. 2 years ago people would have been distraught if I had not required LBC for secondary glazing as they would have needed to pay the VAT. If I feel the people are being sympathetic to the building I will always encourage them rather than wrap them up in red tape. After all, I am the only one who knows what records we actually hold on the building anyway!

Good luck

Garnett

 

[Mickey]

Hi

Property was converted (v. badly hence the DG window I guess, not by us, prior to listing) it is 1846 converted school, same architect as Truro Cathedral. We love it and truly want to do the right thing having learnt so much from this great forum over several years. I realise that DG albeit slimlite is prob not doing the right thing but the window was DG to begin with put in prior to listing, the condensation we have to deal with in winter is pretty bad.

Garnett I wish you were my CO, please dont' think I am CO bashing, it's the system. I have no access to my CO whatsoever unless I pay £150 to get them to visit so I can ask advice/questions which I find truly frustrating when I read on here about the great relationships/access others have to their CO and all their knowledge often at the end of the phone!

We are of course abiding by CO stipulations and will be going single glazed, more work for the Karcher window vac

Mickey

 

[Roger H]

Hi Mickey.

Was it DG that you actually applied for or was it not specified on your application drawings/details? Or is the CO conditioning elements of the approval that differ from your lbc application?

You could consider an 'Application to Vary the Condition' if that is the case. You can then appeal against an unfavourable decision should you so wish.

 

[paulb33]

Hi

We are of course abiding by CO stipulations and will be going single glazed, more work for the Karcher window vac

Mickey

Personally, I wouldnt bother with the window vac. Its a bit like shoveling snow in a blizzard. Let the condensation be a reminder that you live in an old house. That the old place is meant to be ventilated. One less DG panel means less moisture condensating on beams, in walls, etc.

I'm installing single glazed. But, I do hold out hope for technology that gives us a better glazing solution than slimline DGs currently offer.

Post us a picture of your special house.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I think the window vac is great. Less water running onto the wooden bits of the frame means the paint stays good for longer and the window is less likely to rot! We only get condensation in one room, perhaps because i put new beading on the window with integrated draughtproofing!