Large finial maker wanted

[spooksbooks]

I am new to this forum, but wish I had found it several years ago. I live in a Victorian house in Monmouthshire with rather a lot of finials, most of which need to be replaced due to either their tops having been chopped off or rot. I have taken templates from the originals, which I believe to be pitch pine, and I am trying to source suitable replacements. The four largest ones, which are over seven feet tall (although top 12" was formed seperately) and almost nine inches square, are proving to be difficult to replace. I have contacted a number of joinery companies but none have shown any interest in reproducing them. I presume they will need to be cut using a bandsaw and then finished by hand? I have considerd buying my own bandsaw and doing the job myself to save on cost - it seems that the wood alone is likely to cost about £250 a finial! Has anyone any experience of this type of work or know of a suitable joinery company? I am keen to use pitch pine again but pieces this big would have to be specially imported so I could't see it before I buy - is this timber any good these days, or should I be considering an alternative?
The small finials are much simpler and have a turned base. I have been quoted for making up replacements in sapele by a woodturner. I presume this is a good wood for turning, but would this be a suitable timber for a finial (to be painted with linseed oil paint)?

 

[Penners]

Hello spooksbooks, and welcome to the forum.

Have you checked to see whether these large, square-section finials are made in one piece? I think it's possible that they may have been constructed in a number of pieces, perhaps with mortice and tenon joints between the sections. I mention this only because it may be easier to find a joiner who will make new sections to replace the damaged or rotted ones, rather than recreating the whole thing.

I have to say that I wouldn't envy you the job of making one of those with a bandsaw. It looks like a lifetime's work to me! If I were to tackle the job, I would want to use a spindle moulder, although I should add that the cost of all the various cutter blocks could be eye-watering.

Finally, is the section of finial shown in your lower picture representative of the condition of all of them? If so, then - speaking for myself - I wouldn't consider replacing the entire thing. If a piece had been chopped off, I would set about replacing that piece. And if some areas were affected by rot, I would be trying very hard to carry out a conservation repair.

 

[spooksbooks]

They were made in two pieces. The main body just over 6' long and the top piece, which is 12" by 3" was made separately and dowelled down into the main timber. If I can retain and repair the two remaining base sections, I agree that that would be great. However, I am a bit reluctant to remove the bases to properly asses their condition until I find a potential way of replacing them if necessary. Unfortunately two of the finials have completely gone. Thanks for the advice - I will bear it in mind when I eventually remove the bases.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Welcome to the forum spooksbooks. Unfortunately the craftsmen I know are all too far away to help, but it does sound like it's going to be a difficult, and expensive, job.

Just a thought, and probably a silly one, but how would it look on the building if they were cast in stone or reconstituted stone and painted? It probably woudln't be any cheaper, but it might mean you never had to worry about it again.

I am continuously struck by the thought that Britain, back when our houses were built,was more like India is now in terms of getting good craftwork cheaply. I was at Belton House at the weekend and there was a carving of Grinling Gibbons standard in the marble Hall - actually hanging adjacent to a Gibbons one. Back in the day - which I think was 17-something, it was £26, which equates to £2000-ish now. A lot of money, but you wouldn't get it for that now.

I'm not saying that I want to go back to a society of such divisiveness where the rich dine on gold whilst peasants starve, but it does make doing up our period properties in the way that they were designed very difficult, if not impossible. I'm currently getting a quote for bespoke doors with very very fiddly work. I'm not expecting to be able to afford it!

 

[Flyfisher]

Like Penners, I'd be surprised if those finials were made from a single piece of wood. They are certainly a substantial construction.

When I repaired some dormer windows I had to replace three finials, though they were only about two feet long and rather less ornate. I think the square section was about 2.5 inches. I found a company in Norwich with a copy-lathe and they were able to make exact copies for me for £30 each.

I realise Norwich is hardly convenient for Monmouthshire and I only mention it to show that such specialist companies do exist even though it can sometimes be tricky finding them.

I wonder if it would be worth contacting your CO (even if the house isn't listed) and asking if they know of any architectural joinery specialists in the area.

 

[biffvernon]

I wouldn't use sapele, mostly because the rainforests are having a hard enough time without being used for ornamenting our houses with finials.

Anyway, larch or Douglas fir would be much easier to work and will see you and your grandchildren out.

I've got a finial that needs replacing. She who doesn't get obeyed nearly as much as she would like has been telling me to make a new one for several years - it's in a worse state than yours. When I get round to the job I'll let you know how I did it, but I think there will be a fair bit of carving by handtools.

 

[spooksbooks]

Wow! Thank you for the warm welcome and the interest. I've now become a finial spotter whenever I am out and about. I see quite a few that hang below the ridge but not many (except ceramic) above.
Thanks for the ideas JoyceAndChris, I had considered (dare I say) fibreglass, but I think I will stick with timber as despite being 40 feet off the ground, I'm sure I will be able to tell the difference. I know exactly what you mean about the craftsmanship that historically went into these buildings - I can't believe the detailing that has gone into eves joinery that can't possibly be seen from the ground - perhaps I will post some photos to illustrate.
Whilst the originals were made in one piece, but for 12" ( I know because I removed and bisected one that was in very bad condition to produce the template) I think I may have the replacements made in sections to assist with manufacture and re-fitting. Interestingly, had the large finials been turned instead of square, I don't think I would have struggled anywhere near as much to find someone to make them.
I appreciate what you say Biffvernon about sapele and the rain forests, but I have been assured that it is from certified sustainable source and the turner even suggested that you can't buy anything else? Perhaps someone can tell me whether that's true? There is probably a good argument for supporting countries that act responsibly and supply sustainable timber rather than tarring all tropical woods with the same brush, these countries need an income, one way or another.
The good news is, I have now found a few relatively local craftsmen that have suggested that they can make the large finials for me. The key thing was to look for carpenters that also had carving skills. One of them is considering using an overhead router to at least do some of the work. I may have to compromise by using laminated timber to keep the material costs at a realistic level. The important thing will be to keep them painted! Fingers crossed that the cost will be within reach. I will try the CO if these enquiries fail.
Those helpful people at Holkham Paints assure me that sapele will be fine as long as I don't oil it first, so I have ordered the small turned finials.
Thanks for all the help – I will let you know how it goes.

 

[biffvernon]

assured that it is from certified sustainable source

No prizes for guessing how easy it is to get fake timber certification anywhere between Nigeria and China.
A laminated European redwood has the advantage of avoiding the shakes that could occur with a large piece of larch (thought I'd just call that 'character').

 

[spooksbooks]

Point taken - I will speak to the wood turner about options. Sounds like good advice on wood selection, much appreciated.

 

[Feltwell]

Are you thinking about replacing that base section that is pictured? It looks perfectly salvageable to me - I've repaired worse on this place. I stripped it back to bare wood, coated it in hot linseed oil twice, allowed to dry. Then filled in the large cracks & holes with linseed putty in several stages, allowing each layer a few days to dry. Finally some luslack filler on the smaller imperfections, a sand down, another coat of hot oil just to be on the safe side and then 4 coats of linseed paint.

A bit long winded but it seems to have worked so far at least - 5 years on and it still looks fine. There is obviously a limit to what can be done but please do repair as much as you can rather than replacing.

 

[spooksbooks]

Thanks for the re-assurance and the benefit of your experience feltwell. I will certainly take your advice on the two bases that remain, although the one pictured is the better of the two. Perhaps you can also offer advice on some barge board repairs that I am just about to post?

 

[Feltwell]

Another thought - there are several woodturning clubs around the country, one local to me tends to have a stall at local charity events. Membership seems to be nearly all retired men. They are clearly woodworking enthusiasts and I'm sure do more than woodturning - why don't you try getting in touch with one local to you and see if anyone fancies a challenge? I can imagine an enthusiast could really enjoy making something unusual like that, seeing his handywork up on an old building and earning a bit of cash whilst he's at it.

http://www.woodturners.co.uk/

I'm sure other clubs must exist, for turning and carving etc.

 

[Penners]

The only problem with that, Feltwell, is that (as I understand it) these big finials are square-section, not round. So the average wood-turner isn't going to be able to oblige.

It is, in fact, possible to turn a square moulding (believe it or not). It's a process that requires a highly specialist and expensive lathe, which has facilities to revolve both the workpiece and the cutting head. Through some geometric black magic, the revolving cutter strikes the revolving workpiece at exactly the right angle(s) to create a square section.

But I don't believe your average woodturning enthusiast would have this kind of sophisticated equipment.

 

[biffvernon]

A good principle in the repair of old buildings is to work out how the job was done first time round and then do the same again. (which is why I'd tend not to use laminated timber, even though it might do the job better.)

The original craftsman probably didn't have the sort of lathe Penners describes!

 

[Feltwell]

The only problem with that, Feltwell, is that (as I understand it) these big finials are square-section, not round. So the average wood-turner isn't going to be able to oblige.

I didn't make myself very clear Penners. What I meant was that a wood turning club may be a good way to find amateur woodworking enthusiasts who are willing to have a go at making a replica by whatever method they choose - not that they make it by using a lathe. My local club sells all kind of wooden items, some of which have only a small percentage of turned components or none at all!

 

[benmc]

Hi

To source the wood give this guy a call.

PHOENIX RECLAIM, South Yorkshire, UK. Tel: 07795820336.

They source reclaimed pitch pine beans. I have used them to make parquet flooring and skirting from Pitch Pine. Worth a call to get a price on the wood.

No connection apart from being a satisfied customer.

Ben

 

[spooksbooks]

Sounds like an interesting source of timber - I will give them a call thank you. I've been tempted by some old church pews that would make some very nice barge boards, although getting the timber would be the easy bit.

 

[biffvernon]

Much easier to sit on when still pew-shaped than cut up and hung from a roof-top. There are plenty of fine larch trees growing, just waiting for the job.

 

[spooksbooks]

Sorry, I should have been more precise The reclaimed timber was only planks. Not sure what happened to the rest of the pews, but I don't suppose they were wasted. I wouldn't consider dismantling a pew just for the timber, but even so perhaps Barge Boards wouldn't be the best use of the planks?

 

[Penners]

I'd tend not to use laminated timber, even though it might do the job better.

In principle I absolutely agree. The only problem nowadays is finding the kind of quality, quarter-sawn timber that the original craftsmen would have used, in the sections needed for the job.