Lack of proper lintel above window

[culvermags]

We have had some traditional wooden casement windows made to replace rotten stormproof casements at the front of our listed house. The window fitter started with one window upstairs and many bricks started to fall out of the straight course above the window. There is no lintel immediately above the old window but there is a wooden lintel just inside the window. It looks as if the window itself is holding the brick work up. We know from photos there there have been other windows in the house, one type in the 50s and the current windows probably installed in the 70s. The brick work immediately above the windows does not match the rest of the house so bricks have previously fallen out. My question is this, how do we go about installing these windows? The window fitter thinks a lintel should be fitted but we are worried that this would cause a lot of damage. Can props be used and if so what sort? Is the window itself sufficient to hold the weight of these bricks like in the past?
Thanks

 

[biffvernon]

Is the window itself sufficient to hold the weight of these bricks like in the past?

That depends on the strength of the new frame. I had a visit from Buildings Control whilst I was fitting one of my windows. He had just started talking about lintels when he caught sight of the new frame. "Ah, not much point in putting a lintel over that then," and he ticked the box on his clipboard. Of course, the frame was oak, not uPVC.

 

[culvermags]

The windows are softwood, joinery grade redwood I believe

 

[Nemesis]

I suspect it may also depend on the local authority, and building regs may come into play here....

 

[Juju]

I was just about to post a message on a similar topic to this. My new kitchen windows fitted last year are hardwood and as there were no lintels with the old 1970s windows and the brickwork is in perfect condition and didn't come crashing down when removed, the builder advised no lintels were needed. I have fretted a bit since but no problems have arisen!

A related topic to this - I'm now selling my house and as the non-standard windows were made by a joiner (obviously not FENSA-registered) but with the correct spec double glazing units, I never worried about inspection. Do I have to get building regs approval or is does this come under the grey area of the Part L regulations? I'm panicking as the solicitor's forms ask for certification for new windows.

 

[biffvernon]

I suspect it may also depend on the local authority, and building regs may come into play here....

It shouldn't depend on the Local Authority. The Buildings Regulations apply equally across the Nation. The Regulations require that the wall does not fall down. Of course the judgement as to whether a particular frame is strong enough to support a particular pile of bricks, rests with the Buildings Control Officer. In reality, and remember that the load in brickwork spreads out in a triangular fashion, it doesn't take a very big piece of wood to hold up a fair few bricks. If the wall has not fallen down in the last 30 years it probably won't now if you replace like with like. The bricks will not have gained in weight.

Do I have to get building regs approval or is does this come under the grey area of the Part L regulations?

Part-L is hardly a grey area. For windows installed since April 2004 you should have applied for Buildings Regulations Approval and got a certificate of compliance. It would have cost you £50 + VAT. Anyone thought the window tax was abolished 200 years ago?
So you could either apply to the Local Authority and get the certificate now or tell your solicitor that you don't have one. If you opt for the latter course of inaction I would be surprised if the house sale fell through on that account.

 

[Moo]

You say that there is photo evidence of 'new' windows in the 50s and 60s. If this is the case, the proportions of the window openings may have been changed to suit the current fashion.
So is there a chance that an older, original, lintel is hidden higher up?

 

[Penners]

For windows installed since April 2004 you should have applied for Buildings Regulations Approval and got a certificate of compliance.

Biff - if new windows (that aren't double glazed) are fitted to a listed building, with proper LBC and building regs consent, is it still necessary to obtain a certificate of some sort? If so, who issues it?

 

[biffvernon]

Ah, now that's not a grey area - it's really murky.
You can't have a certificate of compliance when you haven't complied but you might have listed building consent or planning approval depending on the situation.
Moretyne?

 

[Moreteyne]

Biff is correct, again !

You can go through the whole situation involving the CO, but you have to remember that that CO is only interested in conservation issues and not planning rules and regs. Hence it is possible for both departments to clash.

Building regulation officers even though working with guidelines can be quite stubborn in their approach even after LBC has been sought.

The Building Regs department who finally certificate your work can have a flexible approach to listed buildings and have always been encouraged to do so. But what with new regs and the heighten awareness of carbon emissions today, you can bump into a jobsworth who is unwilling to bend.

Unless you comply with their interpretation of these guidelines they will not certificate your work, even after LBC and Building Regs consent has been agreed upon. Of course you are always able to challenge their decision, or decide not to bother with the certificate ? :wink:

 

[Penners]

Unless you comply with their interpretation of these guidelines they will not certificate your work, even after LBC and Building Regs consent has been agreed upon.

Moreteyne - could I just say that back to you, to be sure I've understood?

If you apply for and receive LBC and Building Regs consent to install a new single-glazed window in a listed building, then at the end of the process the BCO could refuse to issue a certificate on the job.

Really?? How can Building Control grant consent and then refuse to certificate? It just doesn't make any kind of sense!!

 

[Nemesis]

Penners - to be a BCO in many, many cases is also to be a jobsworth...

 

[Moreteyne]

Penners

I agree whole heartily, however it would seem that the departments involved just don't communicate.
My own experiences of this issue was quite astonishing.

Case history :

Spoke to CO about replacing windows with handmade Oak windows, single glazed with mouth blown glass ,( courtesy of BV conglomerate ) style agreed upon , etc etc.

Applied for listed building approval, received visits by Parish council, Planning Officers, and all agreed that the windows would enhance the property .( circa 1787 )

Application successful , so then applied for Building Regs approval, which was also received sometime later.

Began to install windows , informed Building Regs and got a jobsworth visit.

Comments like , "no trickle vent " " non safety glass " Non double glazed" " Issue with glazing bars".

The offshoot was that I appealed on the grounds of common sense. The decision was to reduce the issues that needed to be imposed , but still they are not happy and am still fighting their decision.

Unless I comply with their guidelines they will not certificate my work.

So you see, nothing is ever cut and dry , even when you go through the proper channels.

 

[NT]

If what you're doing is non-BR compliant, as it sounds like, they cant certify that it is compliant. I'm unclear as to how or why this would be a problem.


NT

 

[Moreteyne]

My concerns were why was I being made to comply with regs that are aimed and the modern builds of today. Surely when we are restoring properties to something like their original splendor, unless we stick double glazing in , how are we going to achieve BR certification.

In my instance I am removing double glazing and restoring single glaze period style windows that would have been in the property originally.

So here is the rub, if I leave double glazing ( which was installed illegally by previous owners ) then I breach listed buildings. Enforcement could be taken to make me comply and remove. If however I remove the double glazing and go to introduce single glaze period style windows, BR do not want to certify unless I change aspects which would then make them non period style. Then I could have enforcement action taken against me to comply.

So where is the common sense in this. The different departments should have liaised when my initial listed buildings application went in. This is my point.

 

[biffvernon]

Best not to be certified, I'd say.

 

[NT]

My concerns were why was I being made to comply with regs that are aimed and the modern builds of today.

Imho this is a major flaw of BR.

So here is the rub, if I leave double glazing ( which was installed illegally by previous owners ) then I breach listed buildings. Enforcement could be taken to make me comply and remove. If however I remove the double glazing and go to introduce single glaze period style windows, BR do not want to certify unless I change aspects which would then make them non period style. Then I could have enforcement action taken against me to comply.

... which you would then be unable to do, since LBC would presumably not be granted to refit dg.

So where is the common sense in this. The different departments should have liaised when my initial listed buildings application went in. This is my point.

Maybe youre being optimistic to expect common sense. Or to put it another way, laws in the interests of the people.

Another example is all the used upvc windows & doors that go to the dump. To permit house owners with single glazed windows [who already want pvc dg] to fit them would be common sense - no manufacture cost, no manufacturing resource use, no pollution, reduced heating bills/energy waste, and energy efficiency improvement in housing stock. But no... its illegal! Only windows that meet the very high latest standard may be lawfully fitted!! Its nuts on the face of it, until you realise what these laws are about. Yes theyre about energy saving second, but theyre about business first. And business interests are that you should discard all those windows and buy new.

Thats what makes PPs such a low priority, theyre adverts and concrete proof of the virtue of non-consumption, and thats just the opposite of what nearly all businesses want.


NT

 

[Penners]

Best not to be certified, I'd say.

I'd agree with you Biff. Trouble is - if/when you come to sell your house, the purchaser's solicitor is going to note the missing certificate and start mumbling about single-premium insurance policies in favour of his client, in case the BCO comes along and dismantles the house brick by brick.

Premium several hundred pounds.

 

[biffvernon]

Does anyone know of a house sale that has fallen through only because a window certificate was lacking?

 

[Nemesis]

I suspect the solicitor would be content with LBC and building regs approval. Certs are certs.