Is sanding MY only approach?

[Ali McNay]

Ok I have read varying approaches to 1930’s parquet flooring in the archives.


I know that there are several areas of my flooring that will require sanding due to the excessive wear they have received.

In the hallway the majority of the stain has faded / worn off.

In the front room only the outside metre was originally stained and varnished (assuming the centre area was originally carpeted).

We have recently removed the carpet and underlay. The underlay has marked the flooring.

I have re-laid loose blocks with Stycobond F21 (a forum recommendation - very good).


What approach should I take? I assume just removing the varnish would not help with the large section of flooring unstained in the front room.

Is sanding the only approach?

Thanks

 

[Penners]

I suggest that the first thing you should do is wash the floor, so that you can see what state it's really in without any dirt obscuring it.

Use a bit of detergent in warm water and a soft scrubbing brush, and give it a good dose of elbow grease. Don't slosh the water about more than absolutely necessary, and as soon as you've scrubbed one area, dry it off immediately with old towels.

Once it's properly dry, you can then assess how much work it really needs. If you do feel that sanding is necessary, I urge you to try and avoid using a big hire-shop sander, which will rip off several millimetres from the surface and destroy the historic patina.

Try using an ordinary handheld orbital sander with something like 100g paper. This gives you fine control and enables you to sand off any loose or mucky material without taking a layer of wood with it. If you haven't got one, you can buy them for well under £20 from DIY sheds.

 

[Ali McNay]

Thanks

Retaining the historic patina is fine in the hallway.

But in the front room i am still going to have a dark strip around the edge and a light square in the middle, and i could be there until christmas with a small hand held sander!

Does any one know what would match the original dark stain used in the 30's?

 

[Schoolmarm]

Hmmm, Evelyn might know if you ask her. She is on the old forum.

 

[Penners]

Does any one know what would match the original dark stain used in the 30's

I must say, Ali, that matching stain exactly is a dark art (ha ha!). It's terribly difficult, and I doubt that you'll ever achieve it to your 100% satisfaction. But you can give it a try if you like. Buy stains in a selection of colours close to the colour you want to match, and then set about mixing them in varying proportions and testing small areas. Of course, you have to keep scrupulous notes on proportions, so that if you are successful at reproducing the colour, you can then reproduce your stain mix! Trouble is, if you fail, you then have a floor which has additional spots of unsightly stain all over it.

So ultimately, maybe you will have to sand the floor.

But before you resort to a brutal hire shop sander, why not just try a handheld orbital sander, to see how you get on? I know I keep banging on about this, but it really is so much kinder to your floor, and if you can succeed with it you'll have a finish that you'll be much happier with.

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

Ali, I back up the recommendation of a hand held sander. I would try and hire one though rather than buy one, because you can get one with better dust extraction that way. Provided you are not stingy with the amount of sand paper you use, you will get the job done, and with the control Penners talks about.

My experience of a drum sander was dreadful. I spoiled my floor really, gouging out areas because the sander was faulty (not that we realised that until we took it back) and causing so much mess. Its OK now because I had to set to by hand to repair the damage, but I wouldn't use one on a parquet floor unless I had a lot more experience. My experience of parquet is that its usually very hard, so you can get the varnish off reasonably easily with a sander.

The stain is harder. But if you go over those areas more you could go into the stain and start removing it, then bleach it with a wood bleach to lighten it up. Once you've got a lighter start point you could then stain the whole floor to hide the differences.

Sue

 

[Paul Hopper]

Parents had this in their house, years ago but they expired ten years ago so I cannot ask (directly anyway) On a related but frankly non PPUK area we have a 50' Narrowboat originally nicely lined out with pine but the first owner went and varnish stained it. is now quite dark. Anyone any ideas for restoring it to the ligher honey gold that I think it ought to be?

 

[middi]

Sorry Paul, the only thing I know about narrowboats is that they get stuck in locks if you manage to drop the lock key in the water.

 

[Paul Hopper]

Thanks Middi
been there, done that, and got the bruises to prove it, as has my wife, !

If anyone does have ideas though I would be so grateful as we are going crazy with the old darker finish.

 

[Penners]

Anyone any ideas for restoring it to the ligher honey gold that I think it ought to be?

Pine will always darken with age, but I accept that there are some quite nasty yellow, treacly finishes that get put on to it.

The only way to get it off is to strip it. Normally I would use standard Klingstrip for a job like that, but in my experience it's not the right stuff for softwood. It seems to darken the colour of the wood - which is exactly what you don't want to do! You might want to call the manufacturers, Strippers of Sudbury (01787 371524), and ask whether they can recommend one of their other products - explain what you're trying to achieve. Alternatively you could try one of the Nitromors products, or maybe someone else will recommend a better softwood stripper.

Once you've got the varnish off, you'll be in a position to assess how much of the redness is actually in the wood itself. If it's still pretty red, then the only way to lighten it will be to sand the surface off. And in my view that's a bit of a hiding to nothing, because in time it will just go red again! But it's up to you.

To refinish the pine, I would use a clear acrylic varnish, which is about as colourless as any surface coating that you can put on. If you choose one that has a UV filter in it, you'll slow down the reddening of the pine, but you still won't eliminate it completely.

 

[Paul Hopper]

Thanks Penners

Acrylic Varnish was a great success on the previous one but Sanding may sadly the messiest but only practical way we can do this, In a confined space Nitromors etc could be lethal!

Paul

 

[Penners]

Sanding may sadly the messiest but only practical way we can do this

I am certain that you'll regret it if you sand with a big hire shop sander. It will rip off several millimetres of wood and take any patina with it.
Can't you ventilate the place for the requisite time after using Nitromors? Alternatively, talk to Strippers of Sudbury about their best material for the job. I don't know about their other products, but I certainly find Klingstrip to be pretty well fume-free.

 

[Toby Newell]

Hi

Please see my piece http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/article023.htm, this may help.

1. DO NOT use a caustic stripper. Your floor is probably either pitch pine or oak, caustic strippers will ruin this.

2. DO NOT use lots of water to wash it. Most parquet floors of this time were laid down with bituminious mastic, this becomes very brittle with age, lots of water will cause the blocks to swell and detach themselves.

3. The only way to remove the bituminious paint around the edges is with a floor sander. Or a very sharp cabinet scraper and a professional random orbital sander like the METABO SXE450 DUO £160 or a FESTOOL ROTEX 150 £280, with these sanders you really need to have a dust extractor which connects to the sander they make so much dust it is not really practical to use them without one.

4. If you can hire a proper belt floor sander this will NOT take off several mm and will NOT ruin the patination if you use it properly.

5. If you want to sand by hand you can NOT do it with a £20 orbital with p100 grit!!!

6. Last week I hand stripped and sanded a Georgian pine floor (around 20 to 25 sqm) I used an industrial cabinet scraper, a little Nitromors and a £500 sander/dust extractor combination. It took me three days and I used P40 grit on a Metabo SXE450 DUO one of the most powerfull hand sanders on the market it was very hard work! and I do this for a living.

7 You can use a filler like LECOL 7500 cellulose jelly with the captured sawdust to fill the gaps.

Hope this helps

Toby Newell[/img][/url]

 

[Penners]

Hi Toby

I'm certain that your knowledge of such things is considerably greater than mine, but let's use a bit of moderation here, eh?

Without actually seeing the floor, neither of us knows how much sanding will be required to take off the varnish (no mention has been made of bitumous paint). To resort to a full size floor sander is to leave out a number of earlier, less brutal stages that might resolve the problem. I have certainly had considerable success on more than one floor with a handheld sander using 100 (or finer) paper.

Maybe with your expertise you are able to use a floor sander with a light enough touch to avoid the loss of patina, but I have seen floors absolutely ruined by these machines in the hands of people who are not experienced in their use. The surface gets entirely sanded off, and the surface is - by definition - the patina.

So, I would still recommend a moderate approach to Ali's floor problem. Start gently and work up progressively through increasingly aggressive treatments until the required result is achieved.

 

[NT]

My floorboards were black round the edges and dark elsewhere. Lots of washing later (with a little bleach in) it was clean and light as can be. Whether you can wash parquet without soaking things I dont know. How much of a problem resticking loose blocks is I dont know either, I've not done this with a parquet floor.

Re sanding: Wear does not mean sanding is needed. A dark floor doesnt either, as I found. I used IIRC 24 grit on a fairly powerful hand held sander for the little patch of black I couldnt get off, and theres no way 100 grit would have got anywhere. 60 grit was no use at all.

Not really a solution for you, but a bit more input


NT

 

[Ali McNay]

Well I hired a large floor sander which was great for getting of the original varnish and stain.

Not very good for uneven areas as this is where it can start to gouge.

After 4 hours the sander broke down and I had to use a hand sander which did a far better job.

I would still be sanding if I hadn’t got the big one for the varnish and stain – I suppose each tool has its time and place, it’s just recognising when and where that is!


Ali

 

[Toby Newell]

Penners

If you read my reply you will notice I advocate the use of a hand held sander, the metabo. This will not ruin the patination. I did such a floor recently for Nigel Watts is a stickler for the traditional and would not dare me go near his floor with a walk arounf machine. I think he would agree most of the patination was left intact. It took 3 days to sand a small room and over a day of scraping. With a DIY machine it just would not have been possible to achieve the same result, even after a couple of weeks. A good workman should never blame his tools but you do really need a quality sander. As a rule I would never put a large amount of water onto any item of wood as that is a sure way to warp/crack/loosen/stain it. I NEVER bleach wood (apart from a gentle oxalic acid) that is a 100% way to loose patination.

A caustic stripper like the one you mentioned contains Sodium or Potassium hydroxide (oven cleaner). These fiercely alkaline materials are one of the only substances know to man that actively eat away at all organic compounds including cellulose. These will leave stains which are irrevocable on pine and will ruin oak and mahogany. I would never use them. Unless you want to paint the wood then they should be avoided for all clear finishes.

Regards

Toby

 

[Ali McNay]

Having recently sanded and stained the floor i have used a 'natural' colour floor wax.

However in a few small areas the wax has turned an opaque colour almost immediately it is applied.

It stays this colour when dry, where it also goes a slight yellow colour and cracks.

Any thoughts on why this would happen.

 

[ljn]

for parquet floors there is a specialist sander called "Trio"

http://www.floorsanderhire.com/trio.htm

It is a biggish machine that has 3 circular sanders. It's very easy to use because it doedn't dig in or leave marks. You just push it round the room like a vaccume cleaner, leaving it longer on the bits of floor that need more attention. To speed up, you can push down or even stand on it- it still won't leave marks.
It takes a long time, but you can use very fine papers till the surface is polished.
It has incredible dust suction, practically you do a dust free job.
It also gets right to the edge of the floor, so edging is limited to small corners which you can probably do by hand.

 

[biffvernon]

Looks awfully like the thing we use on our carpets :shock: